Build Thread...Special to Cafe Bike

You know it never ceases to amaze me how often the right information comes along at just the right time around this place.

This exact job is on my list to do next week. Like Pete I have been researching the Tech section thread but the pics aren't there anymore due to the Photobucket debacle. The only difference is I'll do it with the oil out as the engines coming out when this jobs done.

Nice work Pete as usual, nice pics and well documented.

I too went out and bought a new 27mm impact at PA yesterday when I took my bike out shopping on one of her last trips before surgery. Looked at that full set and thought boy I hope I don't need it until IT goes on sale.

Thanks for putting this together Pete. ;)
 
Shoot Robin - I've got a 27mm you can use and soon, I'll have a 29mm and a clutch holding tool that you can use too! London is only 200 km up the road - its dumb to have two sets of such rarely-used tools.

2M - yup I noted that little shim/washer sticking to the case and slipped it back onto the kick starter shaft.

'Dude - thanks for the info. I have one of those exact kits and will be testing it and I also have a couple of NOS OEM springs which I will also test. I ain't doin' this job twice on this bike!

GARY: thanks so much for the tip about laying the bike over. That is definitely the way to do this task.

ALL: before you dig in - why don't you wait till I have it all done and written up (should be early-mid next week if not before) and that way, my foul-ups can help you.
 
Well, still room in the toolboxes Pete, so I don't mind having it kicking around. But thanks, we'll see if I need that 29mm.......lol.

And before I went out and bought that clutch holding tool that I have heard of breaking, I thought I'd try a try a strap wrench.
If no luck, I'll take you up on your offer buddy.
 
Shoot Robin - I've got a 27mm you can use and soon, I'll have a 29mm and a clutch holding tool that you can use too! London is only 200 km up the road - its dumb to have two sets of such rarely-used tools.

2M - yup I noted that little shim/washer sticking to the case and slipped it back onto the kick starter shaft.

'Dude - thanks for the info. I have one of those exact kits and will be testing it and I also have a couple of NOS OEM springs which I will also test. I ain't doin' this job twice on this bike!

GARY: thanks so much for the tip about laying the bike over. That is definitely the way to do this task.

ALL: before you dig in - why don't you wait till I have it all done (should be early next week if not before) and that way, my foul-ups can help you.
Keep in mind that IF you remove the clip that is already mounted on the gear that you got at Mikes, in order to test your other clips, you just might lower the tension on that original clip. I recommend not molesting the repair kit.
 
Well, still room in the toolboxes Pete, so I don't mind having it kicking around. But thanks, we'll see if I need that 29mm.......lol.

And before I went out and bought that clutch holding tool that I have heard of breaking, I thought I'd try a try a strap wrench.
If no luck, I'll take you up on your offer buddy.
I have been successful using a strap wrench before I finally bought the holding tool, altho I think what made the operation successful was the intense whallop provided by my air impact wrench set at maximum, at a high air pressure.
 
Ah, good to know Dude, thanks. I would have tried using a breaker bar and may not have been as successful that way.

Will plug in the compressor.
 
Ah, good to know Dude, thanks. I would have tried using a breaker bar and may not have been as successful that way.
I now recall that I once, a few years ago, simply held the clutch with my gloved hand, and got the nut off, using the air impact. There is no comparison with an electric.
 
Ya I have an old electric that I used to use on lug nuts, still needed to use a breaker bar as well. Just doesn't do the same job as a good air impact and a decent sized compressor. Thanks for the tip.
 
I'll be doing this soon, unknown territory to me.

Concerning the tach drive.......when that odd assembly is pulled out, does that leave loose parts inside? When the tach drive is eliminated, what are the other issues if any? Just pull out the whole drive and plug the hole? Is that all there is to it?

Anyone have a quick answer? Just don't want to redirect Pete's thread, but we are in the same area and disassembling the same parts.

Scott
 
Ya I have an old electric that I used to use on lug nuts, still needed to use a breaker bar as well. Just doesn't do the same job as a good air impact and a decent sized compressor. Thanks for the tip.
There will always be a need for a breaker bar, for sure.
For that reason, I have kept the 4-foot long VW beetle axle nut wrench I welded together in the 1970's.
I dont throw anything away.
001.JPG
 
MrTW: there is a knurled nut on the top of the drive ass'y - undo it and simply pull the tach cable out.

The rest of the guts (tach drive gear, oil pump drive etc.) simply stays in there and I guess if you plugged that hole, no harm done.
 
I'll be doing this soon, unknown territory to me.

Concerning the tach drive.......when that odd assembly is pulled out, does that leave loose parts inside? When the tach drive is eliminated, what are the other issues if any? Just pull out the whole drive and plug the hole? Is that all there is to it?

Anyone have a quick answer? Just don't want to redirect Pete's thread, but we are in the same area and disassembling the same parts.

Scott
I recall that there are previous threads on this exact issue that provide more details and photos.

Here is one:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/plugging-tach-drive-whole.14949/
 
So far, I've encountered 27, 28, and 29mm nuts on these clutch hubs. It seems you never know what you'll find, lol. I do have all those socket sizes ..... now. I didn't at first. My 1st 29 came off with a 30mm socket shimmed with sheet metal, lol. When it went back together, it was with a 28mm nut I scrounged from an SR500 because I did have that socket.
 
So far, I've encountered 27, 28, and 29mm nuts on these clutch hubs. It seems you never know what you'll find, lol. I do have all those socket sizes ..... now. I didn't at first. My 1st 29 came off with a 30mm socket shimmed with sheet metal, lol. When it went back together, it was with a 28mm nut I scrounged from an SR500 because I did have that socket.
....and there are some near-equivalents in inch/fractions that can be used in a pinch. I keep a conversion chart around for this purpose. Years ago I bought a HF-quality 3/4 drive socket set with something like 7/8" to 2 1/2" sockets, breaker bar, wrench, etc. Weighs a ton, but comes in handy for a variety of purposes including pushing in various seals.
 
Good evening all!
Well, today I completed the starter hairpin job and it was certainly a fun-filled task! Here is a run-down, complete with the data on hairpin torque in which everyone is interested.

When we last left the bike, the RH engine case cover and clutch plates and inner clutch member were off courtesy of my big bad #3 JIS IMPACTA impact driver (get one - awesome, 'uge! - believe me!). The next task was to get the big 29mm clutch centre nut off and I had to nip out and buy some big metric sockets (new tools - always fun!! :D). First, I tried the careful approach and used a 3 ft. breaker bar and the XS650 Direct / MikesXS clutch holding tool. Forget it - total looser. The darn thing folded like a cheap suit. Don't waste your money on this turkey.
IMG_2360.JPG

Well, at this point, I became more "authoritative" and switched to the the brute-force approach: I reached around and popped the bike into first gear, re-mounted the rear brake pedal, pulled down on the pedal to lock the rear wheel and hit that 29mm nut with my electric buzz-gun.
IMG_2361.JPG

That puppy had that 29mm nut off faster than a bride's nighty. I carefully removed the clutch basket and all of the many washers, shims, the funny little thrust bearing, etc. (and for goodness sake get a manual and KEEP TRACK of all that stuff). Set the assembly aside on a clean surface and covered it to keep crapola out of it. At this point, I was staring at the RH end of the starter gear train with the infamous gear #4 and the starter hairpin just behind.
IMG_2359.JPG

It was a simply matter of using my snap-ring pliers and removing that little snap ring and gently wiggling that larger gear (of the two that are meshing in the photo) off its shaft. Be patient here. There is a special cap washer and an odd little split bushing right under the snap ring and you do NOT want to pop that gear off and launch those small parts all over your garage (see the next two photos of the snap ring - and then of the little split bushing that lives underneath it.
IMG_2363.JPG


IMG_2364.JPG

OK - so now you can see gear #4 - the one that causes all the trouble with XS650 starters.
For some odd reason - I did not take a photo at this point. Sorry - brain-f@rt. I guess I was still excited about my buzz-gun victory. Anyhow, you need to persuade gear #4 up and off. Again, no tools and be patient here as the gear is on a tightly fitted spline with a lot of teeth and it is also spiraled so the gear will rotate a little as it slides off (see the photo below).
Note - the hairpin will come off with the gear and there is also a large diameter, but quite weak, coil spring behind the gear which is helping (a little) with the removal task. Here is a close-up of the gear showing the spiral internal splines. Folks, this is a pretty complex mechanical part.
Gear-4 Spines+Hairpin.jpg
Being the trusting soul that I am, I pulled off the old gear #4 and simply slipped on my nice new XS650 Direct Starter Gear Repair unit. Needless to say, I failed to check the slip force on the hairpin - but it seemed like a pretty tight fit on the new gear, so I figured I was good to go.
Well....I wasn't. Dammit. I reassembled the starter gears, re-installed the clutch and found not one, but two problems.
  1. the starter still sounded like a spoon down a garburator (great description Mailman);
  2. the clutch wouldn't work - the lever was loose, the cable was slack and the inner clutch member (the one through which the six clutch holding screws go) was sitting about 3mm proud of the outer-most clutch plate.
Sh!t - I had assembled the clutch incorrectly - somehow. So, I pulled it all apart again, and referring the manual, made sure that I had all of the various shims, washers and the tiny little thrust bearing in the right places (as far as I could tell - they were) - AND - that they are were all the correct thickness (they were). I had no alternative, but to put it all back together again - and this time, the clutch worked properly - but the ding-danged starter was still grinding like a 50 year old stripper trying make her rent.

Clearly, the clutch is a bit complex to assemble: its not difficult, but you must pay attention to what you're doing here.

Soooo....I pulled it all apart again (I was getting pretty good at this job...wanna hire me??) - and THIS time I checked the torque (more correctly, the force required to make the hairpin slip on the groove cut into the backside of gear #4) using my handy-dandy fish scale.

I am sure that all of this talk about hairpins, fish scales and forces is puzzling - but it really is very simple. Here is a photo of the set-up to measure the force to make the hairpin slip on the #4 starter gear. You simply hook it up as shown in the photo below, and pull on the gear until the hairpin slips a bit. A bad force value is below 6 lb and a good force value is well above 6 lb. You want it as high as possible to prevent that awful grinding noise.

Don't assume that just because you have new parts - they will work properly.
Hairpin Force-Test.jpg
The XS650 Direct / MikesXS hairpin replacement slipped at a force of 4 lb. which is well below the recommended minimum of 6 lb. I then checked the failed hairpin/gear assembly which I had just removed from the bike and the force was 4.5 lb (which explained the horrible noises with both hairpins) - but the "old" hairpin appeared to be a thin aftermarket unit that had already been squeezed - so I scrapped that hairpin. I then mounted one of my NOS OEM hairpins on the old gear from the bike - and it yielded 12 lb - which is really good! BTW - the NOS hairpins are made from much thicker wire than the one I had just removed from the bike. The MikesXS hairpin was about the same thickness as the NOS OEM unit. After doing the squeeze on the brand new XS650 Direct / Mikes XS gear and its supplied hairpin - and the slip force jumped from 4.5 lb to 12+ lb. Here is the data in tabular form:
  • Old gear w. old hairpin: 4 lb. (hairpin had already been squeezed - scrapped it)
  • Old gear w. NOS OEM hairpin: 12 lb. (gear was chewed - saved this ass'y as a spare)
  • New gear w. supplied hairpin: 4-5 lb. (the new gear is good but the hairpin was too loose)
  • New gear w. squeezed supplied hairpin: 12+ lb. (I installed this one on the bike)
In the end, I re-assembled the starter gears and clutch using the XS650 Direct replacement gear #4, squeezed hairpin and the supplied coil backup spring (it was much stronger than the old spring that came out of the bike). I did use the new hairpin that was supplied by XS650 Direct - but as noted, I did the squeeze in my vise and achieved a slip force of 12+ lb. The results are excellent - the clutch now works fine (I haven't ridden the bike yet - but it feels good) and the starter now works every time I hit the button.

I also scrapped the six stock JIS clutch holding screws (several of which had damaged heads) in favour of a set of XS Performance Allen head screws - MUCH better items and they fit fine.
Clutch - new bolts.jpg
Along the way, I checked the lengths of the clutch springs (all well within spec), the condition of the anti-rattle springs on the clutch basket (all good) and the thickness of the clutch plates (pretty much like new parts). I also noted that there were some minor scrape marks on the inside of the RH engine case cover - which confirms my suspicion that someone had been in there before and they had some difficulty in getting the clutch re-assembled properly (see photo below) - as had I. The difference was that I stopped well before putting cover back on - and they obviously barged ahead.
RH case scraped.jpg
 
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Excellent Pete. Nice work, nice pics. This'll be heading to a sticky in the Tech section.
:popcorn:
 
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