Charging problems

kenco

XS650 Enthusiast
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Hi all,

I'm having problems with my chargin system, I cant get it to work and i'm not sure if it ever did as the bike was bought as a project. I did find page on the site for checking all the charging system but I cant find it now.

The stator produces a magnetic field when the ignition is turned on and i have batter voltage at the brown wire/brush on the alternator. I have run the bike and with the plugs connected poked a wire into the rear of the green wire on the regulator plug and earthed it out on the battery and still no charge but the head light goes out. How can this be ? because the wires should'nt be linked when you check out the wiring diagram. The brushes are worn but i dont think to much.

I have got the xs650d 77, New loom, 3 wire ignition switch, motorcross headlight and a digital dash. I have altered the wiring to add these parts in and they all work, the bike runs perfectly, all lights and indicators are work as well. I think I'm getting a little blind with the othe work Can any one help with what to try or test procedures.
 
Hi Kenco and welcome. Hope you are not snowed in down there!

Am not up on charging problems as I guess i have been lucky so far but check out the "tech" section and search functions up top.:thumbsup:
 
kenco,

On the early models, the regulator provides a chopped battery voltage on the green wire, so to do the test you described, you have to use battery voltage to the green wire, not ground (earth). Grounding the green wire will short out the regulator and possibly blow a fuse or cause the rest of the electrical system to not have sufficient battery, hence your headlight dimming.

However, like all things electrical, it's more complicated. If you have the relay type of regulator, then it provides alternate battery and ground on the green wire, so you will short it out with either battery or ground on the green wire. :doh: So, the answer is to unplug the regulator when doing the battery straight to the green wire test. :thumbsup:
 
Taken from http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Charging&action=display&thread=3461 but I think a login is required so read below:

This is taken from one of Curly's posts, and is one of the best troubleshooting guides we have seen:

1. First charge your battery to at least 12.5-12.7V.

2. Find a really thin feeler gauge like 0.010" or 0.015" and hold it pointed down about a half inch away from your generator cover on the engine. Now turn the key on. If your regulator and rotor are working the feeler gauge should slap the case when the magnetic field is created in the rotor. If nothing happens or the magnetic effect seems really weak then go on to the next test.

3. On the solid state regulator models all you need to do is locate the green wire at the regulator plug and make a jump from it to ground. That bypasses the regulator and allows full battery current to flow through the brushes out of the rotor through the green wire to ground. That causes the rotor to make a stronger magnetic field which in turn causes more current to flow in the stator. If your battery terminal charge voltage jumps up to 14.5VDC when you rev the engine then the regulator or the ground connection for the regulator is your problem.

4. If nothing changes then it's time to check the voltage on the brown wire (It may be black on your bike) at the positive brush with the key on. It should be very close to battery voltage. The brown wire that feeds the brush gets its power from the brown wire at the keyswitch. Check the voltage at the three wire keyswitch connector while it's plugged in by probing from the backside of the connector with the key on. Again you should see the same voltage as the battery. If you do get full battery voltage there then repair the brown wire circuit between the switch and the positive brush. If not then the switch is either bad or the red wire from the battery is not passing the full current like it should. If that's the case then keep going back along the red wire, through the main fuse until you find the source of the voltage drop. No more than 0.3 VDC drop is acceptable.

5. Once you have full voltage to the positive brush re-check the charging voltage to see if you're getting 14.5 VDC or better at the battery when revved to about 3,000 rpm. If you still don't have a charge then do the feeler gauge test again. If it slaps the case your rotor and regulator are working and you can go on to stator checks. If not then pull the brushes out of their holder and use an ohm meter to test the rotor. Measure the rotor first by touching the tester leads to the brass slip rings. Then take one lead and touch anywhere on the engine that's not painted. For the first test you should see between 5 and 5.5 ohms between the slip rings. On the second test between one slip ring and the engine you should see infinity on the meter. Any reading lower than 5 ohms on the first test or less than infinity on the second test means you have a bad rotor. Replace it. If it tests good then go on to the stator checks.

6. At the stator wire connector locate the three white wires. Use a voltmeter set on the AC scale to test the three possible connections between the white wires by probing from the backside of the connector. (The connector should be plugged togeter for this test) With the engine running at idle you should see about 10.5 to 11 AC volts (Not DC) on each of the three combinations of white to white that you make. If you get a very low reading on one or two legs then something is grounding your stator. If you have high readings on any of the legs (i.e. 16-18VDC) then your rectifier is bad.

7. If you got low readings on any of the stator voltage checks then unplug the connector and use your ohm meter to check the stator windings. Check the resistance between the three fabric covered wires (stator side) on the side of the connector. On each white to white connection you should read about 0.4 to 0.5 Ohms. If you get a very low reading on all of the three combinations find the single Yellow wire connector and disconnect it. Re-check your stator resistance. If the readings are now good then the yellow wire or safety relay are shorted. If there is one or more that still read low after disconnecting the yellow then check those legs by touching one lead to ground with the other on the white wire. You should see a very high Kilo ohm or infinite reading. If you get a low resistance check the stator lead pigtail to see if it is pinched by the cases or rubbed through on the frame. If that looks ok then your stator is shorted and needs to be replaced.

And that's about it except to say that dirty connections and worn brushes account for most of the charging system problems. Good Luck you'll find the problem.


The original post is found HERE. Thanks again Curly!
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Hi,

XS Rob, Weve got a fair bit of snow with some more on the way. I run a load of mobile engineers and its alot of hastle at the moment. My boss bought me a 4X4 so we can get into work - bummer.

I found Curlys thread really good. I have the old type regulator and run a jumper lead from the battery to the +ve brush and still nothing. Whats the relay type regulator, is it the old type with like coil down the side ?

Ken
 
Ohm test the rotor. remove the inner brush and stick a drywall screw in there to get one lead to the inner band, should be 5.3 ohms, much under that is a bad sign. I never trust "not very worn" brushes. they are a consumable on this bike.
 
The old style mechanical regulator is the relay type. Used from 70-79, in 80 they went to a solid state combo reg/rec.
To help clarify things.
On the early regulator, When you turn the key on power is sent to the reg on the brown wire, the regulator sends battery voltage to the rotor on the green wire, from the rotor to grond at the stator and a black wire to the harness ground.
Once the bike starts and the stator puts out 14.5 volts the reg turns off the voltage to the rotor. When the voltage drops below 14.5 the reg turns the voltage back on. It does this hundreds of times a second.
The later combo reg/rec does the same, turns the rotor voltage on and off, it just does it differently. When you turn the key on powr goes to the rotor on the brown wire, through the rotor, out on the green wire to the regulator. The regulator uses a transistor to turn the power on and off. A transistor can turn off/on several thousand times per second. With no contact points to burn.
So now you can see that the old mechanical reg controls voltage before the rotor, the later solid state controls the voltage after the rotor.
This means that on the older reg to bypass the reg you jump battery power to the green wire at the brushes. This will put a max charge in the rotor and give you a max output from the stator.
On the later soild state to bypass the reg you ground the geen wire, this sends battery power through the rotor, maxing out the output.
When doing a reg bypass test hve the meter hooked to the battery, don't let the voltage go over 15 volts. The battery, ignition and lights don't like that high a voltage.
Leo
 
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Hi, Hope you all had a good christmas.

I've been out in the garage today and done some tests on the charge system. I have tested the mechanical regulator with a jumper wire from the battery to the +ve brush and no change with the output. I have removed the alternator brushs and the read 5.5 ohms between the two slip rings and infinity on each ring when tested with the meter to earth. I have tested between the white wires on the stator plug with the engine running. The reading I got was 26v ac at the wires. I couldnt get a dc voltage. So i think the rectifier is faulty. Has any one fitted a combined regulator rectifier.
 
When you had the bike running and tested for white wires for voltage did you have the regulator bypassed?
The 26 VAC is pretty good. I got about 20 VAC on mine with the regulator bypassed.
It sounds like the rectifier is the problem. Several people have gone to a combined reg/rec. I did the Chrysler reg/Radio Shack rec swap. It can be done for around $25 or less. And the reg comes with a 1 year replacement warranty.
OOPs Just realized you are in England. I read some where that a regulator from an Audi or Mercedes can work. The rectifier from Radio Shack is just a pair if fullwave rectifers, if you have an electronics shop around close they should be able to get them. The ones Radio Shack sell are rated at 25 amp, 50 volt. Part # 276-1185
I think the info is in a thread at the Garage. www.XS650garageusa.com
In the electical section, $6.58 rectifier.
I'll look and see if I can find it.
 
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I looked for that post about the Audi or Mercedes regulator and can't find it. It's out there somewhere.
 
The rectifier may be bad. Try checking the running voltage at the white wires with the regulator unplugged. Your contacts inside the regulator may be stuck.
On my 75 at an idle with the reg unplugged the idle was ok, when I jumped the hot to the brushes the extra load on the engine would slow the idle. Not much but noticable.
Getting a later model combo reg/rec will require a bit off a change to the wiring. You need to isolate the grounded brush from ground, three nylon screws to replace the three on the grounded brush fixes that. Then you need to run the black wire from the brush to the brown wire after the switch.
This is done at the six wire plug. On the harness side remove the black wire from the plug or cut it off. Run the brown wire to this spot.
This sends power to the brushes on the brown wirethrough the black wire. Then power flows out the green wire to the reg/rec to complete the circuit.
Over at the garage it gets explained better than I can. They have pics and diagrams showing how to.
 
Ken,

Electrex do a 'plug and play' solid state combined rectifier and regulator for the XS650. I have fitted them to my '79 and '81 (both points ignition) with no issues. Google electrexworld. They are now about £60 so not as cheap an option as some of the other solutions, but I got fed up with the erratic charging and blown fuses I was getting with the original units, even though they seemed to test OK with a multimeter.
 
Hi Ady,

Just checked electrex world and they had one left in stock so ive bought. I'll keep you posted if I've diagnosed it right.

Ken
 
Hi, Got the new reg/rec and it connected into the loom with no need to alter anything and the bike is charging at 14.5V at just above idle. Well happy with the result.
 
Glad it sorted your problem. Mine have been reliable so far with nice steady charging. I spoke to an Electrex rep at one of the bike shows and asked whether they had any plans for a permanent magnet generator - they had a 'total loss' set up for racing but not a roadgoing version. He said that it's a possibility for the future....
 
Hey Leo,
My 71 i just got on the road has been drivin me nuts. It would be charging perfectly, take her for a ride and dead battery.I decided to get rid of the stock rec. and reg. for a newer solid state combo.Thanks to this sites wiring diagrams and your post on how to make it work , its working perfect. Thanks to you and all the xs 650 enthusiasts .
 
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