First highway run; engine bogs at 60

An even better deal for you might be this topend gasket set. You'll get the o-rings you may need too along with some other gaskets you might have use for in the future .....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-72-84-...774916&hash=item3d0ff97e01:g:tSMAAOSwFMZWp~Va

When you pull the housings off to replace the seals, be sure to thoroughly clean the stub ends of the cam shaft that stick out. They get all rusty and that contributes to those seals starting to leak. Buff them clean and shiny with a Scotchbrite pad.
 
^ I used that top end gasket set, and it's great! The valve cover gaskets were very thick, and wavy from age but they were ok after stacking them up and pressing them between two boards with a C clamp for a few days. I'm guessing the gaskets include asbestos, but maybe not. I bought inexpensive set of oil seals off ebay that were pure problem though.
 
One more thing - before you remove the points plate, scribe or scratch a line between it and the housing for alignment purposes. Then you can put it back in the same spot and the timing should remain pretty much the same as it is now .....

yNdLlJU.jpg
 
If you don't already have one, get one of these impact drivers and some jis bits to go with it....

814Lt6bUW9L._SL1500_.jpg

Amazon has 'em for about 15-20 bucks. Trust me, you'll be glad you did.;)
 
Thanks 5Twins; I just bought that topend kit. Jim; Already have an impact driver. Now to find that tour max seal kit. Nobody has commented on my proposal to swap the points and advance for a pamco all in one unit. Not having to worry about things going out of adjustment after setting the timing sounds great to me. I would really rather not be getting in there any more than I already am.
 
Goin' with the Pamco is a choice you'll have to make. Me personally... I don't mind cleaning and adjusting the points from time to time. In fact I kinda enjoy doin' it. If you don't like messin' with points... the Pamco might be the way to go.
 
Ignition choice is a rather vexed topic. Some old hands prefer breaker points because if an igniter box fails while you're out on the road (an unlikely occurrence with new equipment), you'll be stranded, while points can be fiddled with and made to work--if you know what you're doing with them, which fewer folks do every year.

Now here's my personal take on the question. I've seen quite a few XS650 motors with holed pistons over the years. Only one of those had an electronic ignition; the rest had breaker points. In every one of the breaker point systems, the mechanical advance governor (AKA automatic timing unit, AKA [insert expletives of choice]) had caused the failure, due to poor securement or wear (do some searches if you want the ugly details). I used Boyer for years, but its design flaws (thin, flimsy pickup plate, mounted outside the trigger rotor and only partially supported on the edge of the ignition housing) motivated me to change it for a Probe ignition. The Probe system is the gold standard for camshaft driven aftermarket systems for the XS650, but it's no longer available. If I were buying today, I'd probably choose Pamco or the Powerdynamo ignition-alternator unit from Hoos Racing.

So you bought a Clymer manual--fine. Now go to the Tech section and find the link to free downloads of the 1978 manual. Everything to do with the engine and ignition will apply to your D model. You might also go to Amazon and buy a copy of Hans Pahl's The Yamaha XS650 Engine, Including the Ignition. At around $38, it's a bargain, especially for a guy who hasn't been into one of these motors before. Illustrations show you what to expect, step-by-step procedures tell you what to do, and a section on typical defects and wear items tells you what to look for.
 
All about talk and there is no posts where advice taken has been applied and a solution to the work been found or not............1 issue at a time if that solves the problem move to another....... If not, then another solution should be examined worked on then move on...............

Not being a dick.........just not seeing any answers to suggestions that have been asked about...............case in point...........gggGary gave a solution to your, oil all over the motor, problem...........This should have been done straight away and an answer posted.............did it solve the problem............if not what was the next idea to solve it????.............Now your talking about putting a Pamco on the bike..........any ongoing problem is going to be compounded because installing a Pamco means changing certain things and if the problem is still persisting you are going to have more things to trouble shoot............

As gggGary has already suggested. make a list............things to do...........in what order...........work on one and write down what has been done and outcome/solution. ........if no solution you have a record of the work o if someone makes that suggestion you can say what/when/how...............

all that is happening here is proposals put forward and your thinking is taking different turns to every suggestion and there are no solutions to problems because they are not actually getting worked on.

Don't get disheartened by what i am saying..........i have been around long enough to understand the tone of threads and how it relates to the understanding of the OP, and where they are coming from................

Skimming through a manual to me means you are not looking properly...........read and look........if your not sure, check out, or look for the pic of the part your working on, then reference the pic # to a paragraph in the page, it could be a preceding or later page and find what is written about that pic.........and then if it is not clear ask and any question that help things fall into place.

make a list and work from it.
 
650Skull said:
Now your talking about putting a Pamco on the bike..........any ongoing problem is going to be compounded because installing a Pamco means changing certain things and if the problem is still persisting you are going to have more things to trouble shoot............
Click to expand...
I believe it was you who previously suggested that oil all over the points could be causing his problems. I believe going electronic would, at the least... eliminate that possibility. So... there is a logic of sorts there. The bike runs right now. Switching to Pamco isn't going to make things worse and per your thoughts might even make it better. If you gotta pull the points to change the cam seals anyway.... and your of a mind to go electronic.... anyway... now's as good a time as any.
 
JIM- My exact train of thought! Skull, I already stated I sourced the leaking cam seals as the source of my oil leak on the engine. You are the one who told me the oil leaking on the points could be the problem. Like Griz pointed out, I have ALREADY read a couple posts about mechanical advances grenading themselves. In my mind, if I have to spend any money on ignition parts, it might as well be for new, more dependable parts (Pamco) that eliminate potential problems and maintenance in the future. (Oil leaks affecting spark, adjusting points, spontaneous exploding advance weights). Plus, if the coils are my problem, the pamco setup uses 1 dual output coil, as opposed to two coils. One less coil to buy/test/replace in the future. I am not failing to follow anyone’s suggestions; I’m simply Trying to identify and execute the most practical and efficient solutions for my goal of being able to ride the bike asap and have it be dependable, before I spend the money I don’t have to get on the road.
 
Get a pamco its no concern of mine...............All i am doing is trying to get and keep things on track and looking for a solution to the problem of stalling, cutting out and lack of top speed....................so far there is nowhere in the 6 pages of the thread where the OP has actually implemented a working solution to any real answers given, eg: torque the head.

Sure my posts are basic and may sound simple. I know from all my experience in life when working in any situation, where guiding a person, be it on here, taking a group of people through a procedure or a trek through the bush or up a mountain, the pace needs to set as fast as the slowest person........

Surely you agree the points with oil all over them are a concern, (would you fly a plane like that) and eliminating the oil problem should be the first thing to be done. Now points aren't that hard to deal with and if the plates and points plate are scribed before dismantling then if. (if is the operative word), reused and resembled you are dealing with the same set up and not changing to many things before a solution to the problem is found.............

Seen so many threads where people have changed so many things they spend the next x amount of time trying to .
 
tzimmerm said:
JIM- My exact train of thought! Skull, I already stated I sourced the leaking cam seals as the source of my oil leak on the engine. You are the one who told me the oil leaking on the points could be the problem. Like Griz pointed out, I have ALREADY read a couple posts about mechanical advances grenading themselves. In my mind, if I have to spend any money on ignition parts, it might as well be for new, more dependable parts (Pamco) that eliminate potential problems and maintenance in the future. (Oil leaks affecting spark, adjusting points, spontaneous exploding advance weights). Plus, if the coils are my problem, the pamco setup uses 1 dual output coil, as opposed to two coils. One less coil to buy/test/replace in the future. I am not failing to follow anyone’s suggestions; I’m simply Trying to identify and execute the most practical and efficient solutions for my goal of being able to ride the bike asap and have it be dependable, before I spend the money I don’t have to get on the road.
Click to expand...

You will find the detonation of the weights are due to aftermarket ones bought from MikesXS. The problem is the pins that hold the weights come loose from the plate...........yamaha original weights that have done little to medium mileage are not a problem at all........when they do a high mileage the bobs end tend to get a grove in them and this in turn alters the advance curve........

Even the springs are often changed out fro Aftermarket ones and often a problem that has arisen after the spring change can be solved by reinstalling the old ones.........talking from experiance here. Changed mine out thinking new is better when i was working on a new to me bike.

Hey if you want to get and install a Pamco go for it. it is a good upgrade and should be set and play............of course there are a few situations where this hasn't been the case due to other factors not related to the pamco.......sorting out the points now could show an underlying problem that would only carry over to the Pamco if that problem exists.......Assuming your brakedowns are electrical and not carb related.
 
You’re suggesting torquing the head is going to solve the engine cutting out at highway speed? I have the washers; but I don’t have a torque wrench with a low enough scale. Since the head ISN’T the source of the leak, it’s not my highest priority right now. I don’t know anything at all about points; maybe they are simple. What I DO understand about carbs and fuel flow makes me pretty confident the issues I’m having are Carb related. Like everything else on this bike, They seem to be riginal and untouched/neglected, so having them rebuilt is just overdue maintenance at this point, and oldskoolcarbs is going to do a MUCH better job than I would, even if I coukd afford to buy all the tools and whatnot I don’t have to do it myself. And hey, if the problem IS the carbs, then I will be happy after I replace the seals and have a running, leak free bike. If the carbs ARENT the issue, at least I’ll KNOW, AND they will surely run and look better than they do now.
 
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Never said anything about the head causing the cutting out.............This was gggGarys solution to your oil leaks all over the motor.

Once you posted pics of the cam ends showing oil all over the place i could see the oil was a cam seal problem and this is where i said it could be causing your cutting out problems because it is all over the points and wiring..................But hey if you are comfident it is the carbs sort them out and see it it solves the problem...........As any old mechanic on here will tell you, and it has been said repeatedly...........if you think it is carbs then it is just as likely to be electrical............oil all over the points .....an intermittent connection or corrosion on couplings all these things can lead to your symptoms.
 
When I do buy a Pamco, I will definitely buy direct from Pete. And I hope you don’t get me
Wrong either; I don’t mean to sound cocky or rude. I am trying my best to understand what everyone in this forum is telling me. This is essentially my first bike, as I didnt do any engine work aside from installing the HHB PMA on my chopper and doing the wiring. Which was a first for me, and a success. The chopper was super simple and minimalist; this stock bike has a lot more going on. I rely heavily on the vast knowledge of all you great guys, and I respect and really appreciate folks’ willingness to point me in the right direction. I don’t mean to rely too heavily though; I don’t want people to think I’m Lazy or incompetent. I’m just anxious about making sure I am being a responsible steward of this beautiful
Bike, and I’m sure most of you are trying to preserve and care for my xs
Along with me by pointing me in the right direction. That’s why I was worried about the ringing/clatter when riding. Skull may be right about the thread getting a little off track, but the whole fin resonance thing is very informative and I had no knowledge of it. Now I can relax and redirect My focus to more important issues.
 
Last edited:
tzimmerm said:
That’s why I was worried about the ringing/clatter when riding.
Click to expand...
My opinion... you were right to question the noise. Woulda been kinda silly to let the engine destroy itself when you could hear it happening and just ignore it. I suspect your chopper was too loud for you to hear a 'normal' sounding XS engine. I can't speak for the others, but I'm guessing they're concerned you're not following a definite 'plan' to get your bike squared away. And again my opinion.... you're not really following one as well as you could... or at least not posting as if you are. But, at the end of the day... this is your thread. You're perfectly entitled to run it as you see fit. And others are entitled join in... or not, as they see fit. Keep pluggin' away... and keep us posted:)
 
Ok, well to be clear for everyone who IS following, here is my plan- I ordered the top end gasket kit 5Twins suggested, and am going to order the seal kit tomorrow. I will replace the seals and mark the timing parts as suggested, and see where I am after that. I think I am also going to go ahead and send my carbs to oldskoolcarbs for a rebuild and polish, because I don’t think it will hurt, and they probably need it, even if the issues I’m having ARE ignition and not the carbs. So the next week or two will be waiting for parts to show up. I’m going to the black hills with my dad and daughter around memorial day weekend, so Hopefully by the end of the month I will have everything back together- rebuilt carbs, with inline filters (already installed) with new rubber manifolds/gaskets, and new camshaft seals. Will report back with the results of a test run. That should at the least eliminate fuel and air leaks as the source of my problem, and hopefully if done right, I won’t have any more oil leaking all over either. At that point it really couldnt be anything BUT the ignition, and I’ll know for certain everything else is golden.
 
Before going psychotic, maybe you'd like to have a closer look at this.
(From post #84)

tzimmerm-points.jpg


Whatever that is, it doesn't belong there.
AND, if it's metallic, and the point arm touches it, it'll ground the coil.
Lousy running will happen.

That post normally holds a 2nd fibre wick, like in 5twins' post #104. Those wicks rub against the points cam to keep it lubricated...
 

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