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Neutral As Ignition Cut Off?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Ozboy, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    So adjusting my clutch today I had an 'Oh Fuck Oh Dear Moment' when I hit the starter button in gear!
    Bike fell on me and put a small dent in my pristine tank. So I was thinking to stop another 'OFOD' moment can I use the neutral switch piggy backed to earth my coil relay to energize only when in neutral? It was such a small easy task I didnt use my ramp with bike strapped in. I was sitting down by the adjuster leaned up hit button...'OFOD!
     
    Paul Sutton likes this.
  2. mrtwowheel

    mrtwowheel Honda Etched On Brain Top Contributor

    Training wheels?
     
    Ozboy and Paul Sutton like this.
  3. fredintoon

    fredintoon Fred Hill, S'toon. Top Contributor

    Or a sidecar?
    I had a WTF? moment when my XS11 rig nearly lurched off without me because I hit the starter button in 2nd gear.
    If it had been in 1st it might have fired up and gotten away.
    But the XS11 don't have a "starter only works in neutral" interlock relay and the XS650 does. Or it should have.
    You been messing with the wiring?
     
  4. mrtwowheel

    mrtwowheel Honda Etched On Brain Top Contributor

    Brains just work in strange ways. Like getting off the bike without putting the side stand down. Hey, what the hell just happened?

    Scott
     
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  5. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    Only later models have those safety cut-out relays. One was hooked up to the clutch lever in '81, another added to the sidestand in '82. The sidestand set-up wouldn't be of much help as it doesn't act upon the starter, it kills the ignition if the bike is put in gear with the stand down. The clutch set-up might be considered though. It's relay does act on the starter, cutting power to it if the bike is not in neutral with the clutch lever pulled in. You wouldn't have a hole in your clutch lever perch to mount the switch but you could still install the relay. Then the starter would only operate when the bike was in neutral.
     
    Ozboy and Paul Sutton like this.
  6. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    Interesting to see this thread pop up. I see how the clutch/neutral interlock is used on the XS but how do you prevent the starter being activated on an XS while the engine is running with a PMA fitted in the place of an alternator? I am assuming that the voltage rise on the PMA stator's star connection is too rapid to allow the engine to get up enough revs to start before the starter is switched off. Thank you for any opinions.
     
    Ozboy likes this.
  7. fredintoon

    fredintoon Fred Hill, S'toon. Top Contributor

    Hi Paul,
    I'd suppose it'd be just like with a car. Don't push the button (or turn the key) when the engine is running.
    BTW I've seen stalled cars moved out of traffic by putting them in gear and turning the key.
     
  8. Paul Sutton

    Paul Sutton Still Looking Good Top Contributor

    In the New Zealand Road Code it advises that when stalled on a railway crossing you put the car in 1st Gear and use the starter motor to drive you off the crossing. Would that also work on a bike? What if it lacks a starter? Perhaps the kicker in 1st gear? Hell life can be a challenge.
     
    mrtwowheel, Ozboy and robinc like this.
  9. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    Oh of course using the neutral switch on the ignition coil relay will not work for the starter only the spark.
    So how about re routing the the ignition start button going to thru the neutral switch then to the solenoid this might work as the starter solenoid works by earthing the start switch correct?
    Ha ha ha I never thought of that. Another 'OFOD' moment and I just might be.
    I had a friend who put some on his kids motorcycle bike and thought they were weak, pissy and flimsy so he strengthened then up a bit.....Well the poor kid hit a pole and with no flex to bend in the training wheels he suffered a broken arm and wrist. Needles to say mum was never told he was mostly to blame ha ha ha
     
  10. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    So a clutch switch would be better for when you stall at the lights as you can get going quicker. I guess its like the kick only boys who would always have to find neutral to get going again too if it was put on the neutral switch.
     
  11. NashGTI

    NashGTI XS650 Addict

    Simple enough really, power wire from the starter button down to a relay coil, relay coil grounds through the neutral light switch. The power wire to the starter goes through the relay.
     
    Ozboy likes this.
  12. NashGTI

    NashGTI XS650 Addict

    also, beauty of using them ground side control of a relay is you can run multiple options from the coil to ground. One leg through the light switch and the other through a clutch handle switch to ground. Or earth for those among you not of a United Statesian persuasion.
     
    Ozboy likes this.
  13. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    Yeah using the simple power on relay rule that will work but I am sure the solenoid is always charged + and the start button earths thru the bars then down to energize the solenoid. It would be simple enough to connect it in between the Ntl switch and Neg - to the solenoid.
    Just a Japanese way of switching earths that I have not seen until this bike, always seen power switching.
     
  14. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    Sorry the solenoid is not always charged + as I think the safety relay switches it off when it gets the signal to the yellow wire from the generator.
     
  15. NashGTI

    NashGTI XS650 Addict

    would have to double the relays then, could use a tiny first stage relay though as the coil for the second one wouldn't draw hardly anything.
     
  16. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    Yeah that is a way but i don't need relays for plain ground switching. Cheers for the help tho Nash.
    I think just break the blue wire at the Solenoid from the start switch run a wire down to the neutral switch then one back to the solenoid that way it only completes the circuit when neutral is grounded. I can then have room for relays down the track as i think these old bikes need some.
     
  17. pamcopete

    pamcopete Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple

    You want to be able to operate the starter when in gear in case you stall the engine in traffic. So, the solution is the clutch perch switch to disable the starter unless you operate the clutch lever.
     
    peanut likes this.
  18. fredintoon

    fredintoon Fred Hill, S'toon. Top Contributor

    Hi Paul,
    with a bike,
    if the track is empty dismount and push the bike off the tracks.
    If a train is coming drop the bike and run!
    You don't want a bike that stalls on railway crossings anyway, right?
     
  19. Ozboy

    Ozboy XS650 Addict

    Yeah thanks Pete I was heading that way for faster starting and emergency in gear starting too.
    Did they changed the ground switching in the later models?
    Took a look a the diagram and from the SF on it shows no ground switching and the newer 6 pin/plug safety relay. I know mine is a 79 G but has the old three plug plus the two bullets 5 in total.
     
  20. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    There's no such thing as a '79G. '79s were F models, '80s were G models. So, you have either a '79F or an '80G.
     

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