On the road again at 40.............the bike that is

[TimeMachine]

Being the very simple home mechanic minded sort. I'd try just changing up the plate positions or sequence. I grew up fixin my CR Hondas and such with no extra cash and little attempts like this do sometimes work. What risk is there ? A gasket ? You have the parts and the time..

 

[Jim]

Plates should be the same consistency as a disk brake pad. In other words... hard. If you think about it, they both do the same job... creating friction against a metal disc. only difference is one runs dry and one runs in lube. If they mic. good and aren't warped or damaged, go ahead and re-use em. It's not like it's a huge job when they do wear out.
I'll probable get some push back on that, but unless you're drag racing, you should be just fine.

 

[weekendrider]

If you want to do something to plates.

 

[robinc]

Nice WER. I like that idea.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

You're not drag racing, and if the plates haven't given you problems (slippage, jutter, grab, drag, ...etc), then it's OK to reuse them. Not too hard to replace later if need be.

OEM cork composition fibre plates generally have that "fingernail dent" softness when new, and after mild service. They get hard from excessive heat. The hardness isn't a problem, it's just a sign of the plate material changing its chemical structure as a result of previous heat. So, "hard" (and black) doesn't necessarily mean "bad", it just means overheated and burnt. Continued use under harsh conditions, and they'll start giving problems.

Haven't heard of any bad reports from the improved MikesXS thrust roller bearing, but many happier users. Older posts, and MikesXS advertising claim that it's a throwout bearing, but it's not. It absorbs the outward sideload of the basket, during clutch disengagement, which would come from friction plate fingers trying to move outward. The actual heavy "throwout" loads of disengagement are handled by the mainshaft double-row ball bearing, behind the clutch, and by the clutch pushrod/ball pushing on the pressure plate...

 

[robinc]

Thanks for the input 2M.

Haven't had any issues after spending some time tinkering with clutch adjustments which seems par for the course. The plates are in spec, aren't warped, and you're right, now that I've been in there I can see that it is no big deal if they had to be replaced.

I'm sure that's the way with most jobs. Looks intimidating till you get at it.

I like the looks of that XSPerformance needle bearing and I think I will give it a go.

Take care.

 

[Jim]

I like the looks of that XSPerformance needle bearing and I think I will give it a go.

If you think about what 2M just said (it's not a throw out bearing), it's only purpose in life is to provide a bearing surface when the clutch is disengaged, when all the tension is loaded up in the springs. The other side, where the bearing is, is pretty lightly loaded. When clutch is engaged, and lets be real here, that's about 99% of the time, there's no rotation at all between the basket and the hub. Hence, the bearing ain't doing nothin. Probably the most lightly loaded bearing in the entire motor. In that context, the one from Mikes is some serious overkill. I don't see how you can go wrong.

 

[robinc]

Thanks Jim. I know you have the perspective to be able to really judge these things. I appreciate your opinion and advice.

 

[MaxPete]

Just had a look at the Mikes bearing and more rollers is usually better than fewer rollers - so looks good to me.

On clutch plates - yeah, hard is likely normal. When I have mine apart again I will deburr everything and stick it back together as long as nothing is slipping.

 

[5twins]

I've been using the Mikes bearing for many years with no problems. They claim it's an upgrade that improves clutch action but I saw no change. Obviously my original was still OK. I'm sure it's an improvement if your original is bad. It's pretty easy for what happened to yours to happen. The bearing can drop down like that and get pinched during assembly if you're not careful. It's mostly a problem when the bike is upright. Yours shouldn't do it as readily with the bike laying on it's side but do take care none the less.

I've never replaced clutch plates with new ones. All the ones I've used measured near or at the full "new" 3mm spec so I figured they were fine. I never tried that finger nail test but I'm going to agree that the dark color and hardness are probably just normal from running in hot black oil and being constantly squeezed together. The other thing was cost. I couldn't see spending $70 or $80 on something I didn't think needed fixing. But I see now that Cruzinimage has plates at a pretty good price. I've been happy with their other products I've tried so I might consider them.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/75-79-YAMA...226-/131749728893?vxp=mtr&hash=item1eace5527d

One thing I do always replace is the springs. I've done so on pretty much every wet clutch Jap bike I've ever owned. They all seemed to need it, slipping slightly at higher speeds in the higher gears under a heavy load. Aftermarket slightly stiffer springs are cheap, cheaper than original replacements, and always seemed to fix the problem .....

https://www.amazon.com/EBC-Clutches...41394&sr=1-3&keywords=ebc+clutch+spring+csk14

 

[5twins]

A few words about the steel plates - if you look closely at them you'll notice they were stamped out. This gives them a sharp edge on one side, rounded on the other. Most of us like to install them with the sharp edge facing in, round edge out. We figure this will allow the plates to "float" apart easier when the clutch lever is pulled in. I've also started dressing the teeth with a wire wheel on a bench grinder. This quickly and easily knocks that sharp edge off the teeth .....

 

[Mailman]

That’s good info 5Twins! I have been in the fence about whether I should replace my friction plates when I tackle my upcoming starter gear fix. Also I just want to add , it is so helpful when you provide those links to parts you have located. I can’t tell you how many times I have bought something from one of your links! Thanks!

 

[robinc]

Wow, thank you for all that great info 5twins. It is very much appreciated. I will dress the steel plate teeth while waiting for the bearing.

Also I just want to add, it is so helpful when you provide those links to parts you have located. I can’t tell you how many times I have bought something from one of your links! Thanks!

+1 on Bob's comment. I can't remember the number of times that info and links you have provided here has helped me to know what to buy and where to source it.
Just ordered new springs.

Thanks for all you do here. Take Care.

 

[TimeMachine]

Good Stuff robinc ! What a great future resource. Thank you

 

[robinc]

WOW!, is this ever going to be nice having that starter gear fixed.
A lot easier using my 60 year old thumb instead of my 60 year old leg to fire her up.

Also happy I tackled this now as I found that demoed needle bearing and was able to replace it before any serious damage was done.
No parts left over in the parts trays so that’s a good sign.

Some comments for someone who may stumble on this post in the future and hasn't done this starter gear fix before:

As Maxpete recently mentioned, this really isn't a difficult job.
gggGary's idea of tipping the bike over avoids draining the oil, saves parts falling off, and puts it at a great height and angle to work from when sitting on a roller seat.

5twins paint stripper tip does a great job of quickly removing the old gasket material. Saves a lot of scraping and potential gouging of the surfaces.

The clutch assembly has to come off to get to the starter gear. Make careful note of the order things come apart in. Take lots of pics. Good chance to check the status of clutch parts, plates condition and thickness.
There are lots of different thickness and sized washers in this clutch assembly. Have a manual and parts diagrams handy.

Note this picture from the Factory Manual 78E supplement.

You will find a 1mm washer on the inboard side of the needle bearing (e in this picture) that is not shown in many of the other manuals or parts diagrams.
Also when you remove the clutch boss (h) you may be looking at the needle bearing (f) and not see the washer (g). It's probably (hopefully) stuck to the back of the boss.


MY FINDINGS DOING THIS JOB

Our Maxpete spent some time with the XS650Direct/MikeXS folks showing them how these starter gear/clip assemblies should be. Some were still being shipped out without the proper tension on the clip.
As a result they have switched suppliers.
Thanks Pete!

I did some comparative measuring on the first starter gear and clip I had ordered some time ago from XSD, the replacement they willingly sent, and the original I removed. Here are the results.

The rubber on both sides of the original gear was really in pretty good shape, I think it may have been replaced, someone had been in here before, but the compression spring was pooched.



I'm sure I could have pinched the clip on this one and reused it but the compression spring was wrecked so I installed the 2nd replacement gear, clip and spring.


On to the clutch reassembly
When I reassembled the clutch I had planned to install new XSPerformance Allen screws and spacers but hit a snag there.
The original stock clutch springs would not fit over the aluminum spacers.

Here's what I found:

I could press them on in a vice but then the clutch springs would obviously not spin on the spacers.
I don't know if that would matter, but didn't like the idea.
They would have to be chucked up in the metal lathe I don't have to turn them down or even chuck them into a drill press and file/sand them down. Wasn't going to bother doing all that. I just reinstalled the original shoulder bolts and will see if these new XS Performance ones will fit inside the new clutch springs I ordered when they arrive.

That will go on a future job list or maybe do it this winter when the engines on the bench.

I won't bother posting a bunch of pics here that I took of this process as many others have done a great job of it elsewhere on the forum.
I will upload them to albums though.

Most notably Maxpete and DanielBlack have recently completed this job and posted some excellent info. Thanks guys.
Maxpete's link: http://www.xs650.com/threads/build-thread-special-to-cafe-bike.48165/page-13#post-516084
Daniel Black's link: http://www.xs650.com/threads/stella-1977d-survivor-back-on-the-road.47329/page-37#post-526352

I'm a visual learner and if a picture’s worth a 1000 words a video’s worth a 1000 more. There are some great videos in the Tech section about these jobs as well.


Once again guys, thanks for all your help and advice!

Now I'm going to go and push my button……...again.

 

[MaxPete]

Atta boy Robin!!

 

[robinc]

Thanks Pete, and thanks for your advice.

 

[Mailman]

Great work as usual Robin, well documented and informative. I still can't believe those new Allen screws and spacers are so for off. Hopefully they will work with your new springs when they come in. I'm happy your starter is working like it should now. Nice work!

 

[robinc]

Thanks Bob. Yes, nice to have it working. I will be spoiled with an easier startup next year.

With regard to the fittings. I am wondering if maybe the clutch springs have been replaced?
Someone has been in there before, I'm guessing either to replace/repair the starter gear or work on the clutch.

Either one of two things:
The clutch springs have been replaced with a smaller ID spring
or
The XSPerformance spacers are a bad, oversized part.

I don't have any others to compare either too but maybe someone else can measure some of theirs.

 

[TimeMachine]

Watch "BIKE KICK STARTING FUNNY" on YouTube