Still over charging,getting frustrated!

[retiredgentleman]

5twins....which charging setup is it where the charging output is controlled by the regulator grounding the ground wire from the stator rather than regulating the 12v+ to the stator ?
I thought it was the regulators of the 1980+ bikes which grounded the green stator wire to control the charging or have I got that wrong ?

5twins first picture in post #18 clearly shows the difference.

 

[retiredgentleman]

XS650D;

Here's a link from a few years ago with details for you:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21485

5twins:

Good to see you finally got around to installing the VR-115. Now you know for sure that my praise for that regulator was not hyped up. That car regulator was designed for automobiles and trucks with much, much larger alternators, so when using it on our bikes
its not working hard at all!

 

[5twins]

I'm just stubborn I guess, lol. I got the stock regulator to put out a decent charging rate by adjusting it but it just wasn't steady or consistent. I actually think the bike runs a bit better now, a little smoother. My theory is the battery was never brought up to full charge before and the voltage being delivered to my coil was a little low. That gave me a slightly weaker spark. The battery always started the bike and ran the ignition, it just wasn't at 100% charge and delivering as much voltage to the coil as it could.

Peanut, you are correct. The '80-on regulator portion of the combined reg/rec "regulates" the ground to the outer brush on the green wire. The earlier '70-'79 system regulator is pretty much the opposite. It "regulates" power to the outer brush on the green wire.

 

[peanut]

I

Peanut, you are correct. The '80-on regulator portion of the combined reg/rec "regulates" the ground to the outer brush on the green wire. The earlier '70-'79 system regulator is pretty much the opposite. It "regulates" power to the outer brush on the green wire.

thank you 5twins

 

[XS650D]

5T definately worth noting is i re-evaluated what i have done .I stated that i had grounded the Reg/Rec to frame and also to black wire in harness plug.
U stated that i should try unhooking the ground to frame and try.Well i did and the voltage dropped from 15.1 to 14.86,tested it a few times and there is definately a drop in voltage.I guess your assumption was correct!
I still think 14.86 is to high so when i get the VR-115 by end off week i will install and test.I guess i should not ground the new unit to frame and just use the black wire in the harness plug for ground.I take it that black runs direct to the outer brush and should only ground there.Thx again

Posted via Mobile

 

[5twins]

My VR115 did that when I first hooked it up. It was reading 14.8 or 14.9 when revved. I think it was compensating for my battery not being fully charged because of the old stock regulator. I went for a short ride, couple miles maybe, and when I got back I checked it again. It was doing it's 14.3 thing and has been ever since. I will do occasional checks this season to make sure it's staying that way.

Maybe yours is doing the same thing. Take a short ride and check it again.

 

[XS650D]

UPDATE: New VR-115 installed,Finally charging correctly at 14.4 Volts at over 3000 rpm.
After a month off screwing with Mikes Combined Reg/Rec and getting no were. Ps: 5T i did give one final test
after ungrounding Mikes unit from frame and only used the black ground in Harness plug BUT no change.Would
start at 14.9 but still creep up to 15.1 at certain rpm.s. I do have a question on the new VR-115.I noticed that
it will not go any higher voltage at idle regardless of how long bike has run,so no charging there.It will
run at approx 12.7 which is what my battery Voltage is with bike off,is this correct? I have my old Rectif
ier reinstalled till i get a newer unit also.

 

[5twins]

I would say yes, that's normal. The charge rate is somewhat RPM based, more RPMs, more charge (until it maxes out around 3K). The new rectifier may improve that idle charge rate slightly.

 

[retiredgentleman]

UPDATE: New VR-115 installed,Finally charging correctly at 14.4 Volts at over 3000 rpm.
After a month off screwing with Mikes Combined Reg/Rec and getting no were. Ps: 5T i did give one final test
after ungrounding Mikes unit from frame and only used the black ground in Harness plug BUT no change.Would
start at 14.9 but still creep up to 15.1 at certain rpm.s. I do have a question on the new VR-115.I noticed that
it will not go any higher voltage at idle regardless of how long bike has run,so no charging there.It will
run at approx 12.7 which is what my battery Voltage is with bike off,is this correct? I have my old Rectif
ier reinstalled till i get a newer unit also.

Yes, 5twins is correct. These bikes do not charge at 1200 rpm, but neither are they required to do so. At that rpm you are just seeing the battery voltage. The battery is supplying current to the ignition, rotor and lights. As the rpm goes up, the alternator takes over and current flow from the battery stops, but current flow into the battery starts.
That's the beauty of the stock system. You have 2 sources of power, unlike a system that uses a capacitor to replace the battery, which only has one source of power.

 

[XS650D]

Thx again Guys. Nice to FINALLY have a proper running and charging system , Mikes should really stop selling that
stuff, it creates problems that weren't there to begin with!

 

[XSLeo]

I was just reading this thread to check for updates and read in a post by 5twins about what gggGary found out about the black ground wire. Yes it goes up into the harness, The brush also grounds through the stator, engine, frame to battery.
So grounding the regulator to a frame connection will get you hooked to the black wire at the brush.
It may have a bit more resistance along this path than through the black wire to the regulator, it may be enough to cause a voltage drop. Excess resistance in any circuit causes a voltage drop. It may be enough to let the reg read a low voltage and over charge the battery.
Any voltage drop on the brown wire to the reg will increase the output voltage by the same amount as the voltage drop.
As was mentioned there was a .3 volt drop, this would cause a .3 increase in output voltage, This should not be enough to cause as much as overcharge as XS650D saw.
Perhaps one more test might show something. Run a jumper wire from the battery positive to the brown wire at the regulator. This would bypass any voltage drop in the wiring.
Leo

 

[XS650D]

Went for nice long ride tonite (bike runnin great)and decided to check the battery voltage one last time,i guess the battery
must be fully charged as i only get 13.2 volts at 3000 rpms now (Not 14.4 Volts) is that basically telling me its working correctly?

 

[retiredgentleman]

With the engine running at any rpm, and measuring the voltage, does not indicate the state of charge in the battery. Only when the engine is shut off, does the battery voltage indicate the state of the charge. A fully charged lead acid battery should measure about 12.5 volts, after a delay of several hours from shutting down the engine.

With the engine running at 3000 rpm, you are measuring the voltage generated by the alternator, so 13.2 volts is low for sure. Are your brushes longer than 3/8"? Are the 2 slip rings clean i.e. bright and shiney? Have you measured the rotor resistance from slip ring to slip ring? Have you measured resistance from one slip ring to the rotor frame.?

You can do a voltage measurement at the 2 brushes. At 1200 rpm you should measure about 10 to 13 volts. At 3000 rpm you should measure about 5.5 to 7 volts.

 

[XS650D]

RT,I am not concerned about the battery voltage with bike off rite now.What i was wondering is with the bike running after a long ride if the Voltage reg is working correctly and charging battery if i test the
battery voltage at 3000 rpms should it always show maximum charging voltage (14.4) or does the REG sence the battery is fully charged and fall back to a lower charging voltage or not at all.This is with a solid state
unit.I am used to the old Reg characteristics.Reason is when i first installed the unit it showed 14.4 at 3000 and
yesterday after a long ride it showed 13.2 at 3000 rpm.Is that normal.The battery never goes below 12.7 regardless of how long it sits unused.

 

[retiredgentleman]

The voltage regulator does not sense the battery voltage or state of charge. The VR only senses the voltage that is present on the load side of the ignition switch. If the voltage at the load side of the ignition switch is lower that its set point of 14. 1 to 14.4 volts, then the VR increases the current to the rotor and therefore increases the voltage coming out of the alternator stator. 13.2 volts at 3000 rpm is not normal. At 3000 rpm you should always have 14.1 to 14.4 volts.

If your battery is showing 12.7 volts all the time, then your battery is fully charged.

Something here does not add up. Only seeing 13.2 volts at 3000 rpm, means your battery will never be fully charged, yet you say the battery will always measure 12.7 volts????? Are you sure your VOM is working correctly? I recommend you borrow another VOM from a friend, so that you can compare the voltage readings.

 

[XS650D]

RT,Read the reply from Mikes xs regarding the Solid state Reg/Rec I had on there before installing
the VR-115 .It appears that they are stating that once the battery is fully charged the Voltage will then drop
to 13.5-14. Are they wrong?

It will only charge at 15 volts till the battery is fully charged then drop back down to 13.5-14 volts depending on who's voltmeter you're looking at.
Mikesxs

As per instructions,I ran a new ground wire from Reg/Rec to Frame.I also ran a ground from Reg/Rec to Black (ground wire) in Plug to Reg (as per instructions) The Reg/Rec is properly grounded to frame.Are there additional grounds that must be done. When the bike is warmed up and charging,it will show a voltage off 13.5 at idle BUT will increase to 15 Volts at
2500 rpm .The ground from the battery to frame is good also (New) On 2016-05-23, at 2:47 PM, Mikes XS wrote:
Warren, the voltage will go as high as 15 volts for a few minutes when you first start the bike, then should drop to 14.5 - 13.5.
Warren

if it does not drop the problem is the ground wire to the reg/rect. Check the ground from the reg/rect to the motor, engine and battery.
Product #24-2089 Solid State Regulator
Mikesxs

In your Installation Instructions with product it States that "New System should charge at 14.5-15 Volts at 2000 rpm (measured at battery terminals). Question: 15 Volts seems high,will this over charge my battery and possibly damage my Rotor. I am getting a Voltage off 15 and my Taillight (running light)keeps blowing,never had this problem with old original Reg/Rec which charged at 14.5.Please advise if 15 Volts is safe to run.
warren

 

[XS650D]

I dont give up easily but im at the end with this,goin a just drive it!

 

[retiredgentleman]

Don't believe anything Mikesxs tells you. Their knowledge of motorcycle electrics is just the same as the products they sell.................sub standard to extremely poor. Are they wrong............yes they are.

You already know the combined rec/reg they sell is crap, so its time to move on. I have given you all the coaching I can give you. I use a VR-115 and its works extremely well. I always read 14.2 to 14.4 volts as I drive down the road. I suggested you measure the brushes, and take resistance readings of the rotor............its up to you if you do that or not.

Also, I strongly suggest you replace the old original rectifier with a new 3 phase rectifier asap.

 

[XS650D]

RT,I appreciate all the help u have offered,I have tested the rotor (5.5) and have new brushes and cleaned the
copper rings ect.I must have a short somewere its hit and miss ,once the bike gets really good and hot
the Voltage acts up,i drove around with my tester hooked up.At least its not over charging! It may be the stator !

 

[retiredgentleman]

Perhaps resistance checks of the stator is your next step. If the resistance from any of the 3 phases to ground, starts to decrease, that will pull the voltage down.