Trouble starting the bike for the first time.

[projectxs650]

Trouble starting bike for the first time....

So heres the situation, for the last 8 or 9 months i've been slowly gathering parts to build my own xs650. I've gotten stuff from diffrent years, but all for the same bike. Well finally today was the day
where i finished all the wiring, and was eager to just see/hear the engine get started, not neccessarily ride it quite yet. BTW, this was the wiring diagram i used..........

http://www.xs650chopper.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/noid-chopperwiringdiagram.jpg

Anywho, I was short on time, and would be busy to the point that i wouldn't be able to work on the bike for the next 2 weeks. So i called up a buddy to get a extra hand, we quickly put the basics
of what we thought was needed to get the engine started. I kind of followed his lead because he had more experience with older bikes that i have. He wanted to try to kick start it without the battery,
just to see if it would do anything. I figure it wouldn't do any harm, so i put in some oil and gas and let him have at it......nothing really happened. Then the moment came to see if i did all the wiring
correctly. I hooked up the battery and crossed my fingers......

The first few tries we're nothing, but i'm guessing it was because i've never actually used a kick-start before, and that the engine has been sitting for the last 9 months untouched. On the third try it
started, or what i though was it starting......

We watched and listened for a few moments, until we knew forsure that somethings we're not right..... The first was a grinding noise, that came from the area where the sprocket turns the bike chain.
the next was a bit of smoke coming from what i believe is the ignition (the round port on the left side, closest to the top motor mounts), i had the cover off because of wiring. The third, was that
the actuall engine itself didn't seem to be running, just the gear box.......

We both tried to trouble shoot it, but with the limited time we had, and our small amount of older bike knowledge, we didn't get a chance to really figure out what was the cause of the problems.

After looking around, i did see that the carbs weren't actually hooked up.......Odd right? I should of caught that from the get go, but I assumed my buddy did it the right way from the start. It turns
out the carbs we're just sitting in their boots (tight and securely thankfully), and the two hoses that come out from them we're actually hooked up to nothing at all. The fuel line/hose that came from
the tank (i only have 1 petcock on mine, its a aftermarket) just went into one of the two open hoses that come out near the top of the motor, the other hose was tapped/plugged shut.

I made this discovery, but by this time i had to run. Now i'll have just one more oppertunity to work on the bike before i have to put all on hold for a few weeks; and i'm determined to get the engine going, PROPERLY!
I'm sure you guys have tons of experience, and someone like me who has zero could definetly use it. I've ridden my fair share of bikes, but have never built one from the ground up. Hopefully you guys can
point me in the right direction.

The main things that i'm wondering are.....

A) The carbs have two hoses, one on each, where are they supposed to hook up to?

B) The two hoses that come out from the top of the motor, are they ment for the tank fuel line?

C) The grinding noise that we heard, it came from around the sprocket area, we think its the gearbox but don't know if thats actually the right name/thing. What could that be? and what could
be causing it?

D) Smoke from the ignition points? when i looked at it it just looked like one of the fabric coverings for one of the wires was smoldering. I thought maybe this was a wiring issue, so i switched some
wires that i thought might be the problem. I wish i remembered the name, but its the one that is behind one of the top motor mounts, it has two wires, and i connected them to each side of the coils (Left/Right), i
thought maybe they we're backwards, so i switched them around. No change, no more smoke (though the smoke only happened once), but all the other problems presisted.

Lastly, how do i get this thing started right!

Sorry for the long post, but i figured it would be better to be detailed than to not be. Please, someone point me in the right direction!

 

[80xs cafe]

project xs650.
A. older xs's had dual petcocks for the 38mmcarbs. newer models (34mm carbs) only have one petcock on the tank; one fuel inlet/spicket on the carb. What carbs are you using??
B.the 2 hoses from the top of the head are the crankcase breathers. originally they connected to the airbox. im guessing your not running the stock air box correct. dont hook them up to the fuel tank haha. reuse the hose and put either a small filter on them from napa or get a power brake hose stop also from napa. or just leave them be. it will spew a little oil out occasionally but nothing to worry bout.
C. did this noise occur when you were trying to use the electric start?? if so, easy fix. if not... could be not so easy
D. check the wires from your coils and points. if the fabric was burning it could be a sign that the plastic coating is stripped off the wire. and make sure you hook those wires up correctly (ie. left side right side, orange to orange black to black or whatever your current wiring color situation is) the bike wont run if they are backwards.
lastily. just figure out if its electrical or fuel that is keeping your bike from running. after that the rest is easy. everyone on here is very knowledgeable and willing to help. and if i left anything out or gave him some bad advice i would love to be corrected. im still learning. good luck

 

[projectxs650]

Thanks for the detailed response, its extremely helpful.

A) The carbs i have have 2 hoses (one on each) that go into a splitter that leads to a single hole. So i believe its a 38mm.

B) I think this might be where the problem is. When my buddy hooked up the fuel hose to one of the air-breathers, he must of flooded it or something. I was under the impression that they we're hooked up to something, not just left alone. Could this be the cause?

C. Negative, i'm planning on making this a kick-only bike. It made this noise after i hooked it up to the battery, and then kick started it.

D. I'll re-check the wiring diagram.

So with all that being said......i need to double check somethings......

-The airbox accidently got gas into it, do i need to empty it out or something? what would be the easiest way to do so?

-I think i got this right.....but the gas-fuel line actually hooks up to the carbs? and then the carbs fuel the gas into the rest of the engine/bike right?

 

[XSLeo]

At this point I might suggest you stop right now and get a repair manual. Biker.net has them as a download. It will give you a lot of information about your bike.
Also up at the top of the page click on TECH. This leads you to a list. This list has Catgories and in each Catagory, topics. Under Maintainance and General Troubleshooting is a topic, Buying Guide, Getting to Know Your Bike.
Read this.
Leo

 

[projectxs650]

I'll check that out, thanks.

Just a Update.....

So I really only had a little bit of time today to work on the bike today, a little under a hour. My buddy and me went straight at it trying to resolve the issue. First thing we did was actually hook up
the gas line to the right spot, the next was to try and figure out how to get all that fuel out that he accidently put in the air-box hoses. I double checked the wiring and made sure eveything was exactly
like the diagram had shown. Lastly, we hooked the battery back up and crossed our fingers.

Unfortunately, nothing. The engine didn't actually start, and only the sprocket spun (I put it in neutral). Same metal-grinding noise, and nothing coming out of the exhaust pipes.

One word....FRUSTRATING!!!

I'm thinking i have a worn out gear box maybe? but even then that shouldn't explain why the engine won't actually work. Spark plugs look good, almost new. I did notice that the coils seem rusty, the piece that
slides over the spark plugs....the inside of that where the parts actually touch is rusty....I bought it off ebay, supposedly it was good. Then again that could of been a lie, could that be the problem why
the engine won't actually start?

Really i would be alright, or somewhat satisfied if the engine actually turned on, but still had this metal grinding noise. But i can't even get that going.

I'm preety much lost for words, but i'm determined to get this motor up and running, even if its poorly. Because I know that if i can atleast get it started, then i can fine tune everything after th

 

[80xs cafe]

grinding noise=starter bendix is bad. more than likely. easy to replace.. if you continue to use your starter
do you have any spark at the plugs yet?? usually its something simple to fix. just gotta follow the wires til you find the problem.
are your plugs terminal stud or termial cap?? the caps should be on if the stock plug wires/caps are on the bike.
spark first; all other problems next

 

[projectxs650]

Thanks for the info guys. After doing some more research and asking around, I've come across a few things that might be why I can't get the engine to turn over.....

- timing hasn't been done at all yet, and the info I've gathered has led me to believe it may be a reason, or even the cause for my troubles.

- spark caps may be bad. The actual plugs seem new, but the caps are rusty inside and may not be sparking. Iv been suggested to try seeing if I can get a spark by holding the coil up to something steel like the frame. No spark means bad coil/coil caps or maybe my wiring is off?

- Starter bendix is bad, which may be the reason why I'm hearing a grinding noise. Can anyone verify this or has anyone dealt with it before?

- I'm 99% sure I've had it in nutruel. I make sure I push it always in first, before I pull up into nutruel. But with the sprocket spinning makes me think that they're may be issues with the gears?

I'm printing off a Manual, and plan to read it all tonight. Hopefully this will shine some light on this whole situation

 

[gggGary]

You may be lucky it has not started, check and smell your oil, from what I can tell you have dumped a bunch of gas in your crankcase. The kick starter connects to the engine through the clutch. I am guessing your clutch is not adjusted and you have not actually turned the engine over yet. The counter shaft sprocket turning is normal. just the oil in the gear box will make it spin in gear or not. If held (like by the chain being hooked to the rear sprocket) it will not turn when kicked. Something is wrong in the wiring, there should never have been smoke from a points wire, my best guess is you somehow had the battery connected directly to the points with out a coil in the circuit. You need to have fuses in your wiring. Wires should not smoke, fuses should blow. Loose your current buddy as far as working on the bike, he is clueless. It is OK that you are clueless it's your bike, but clueless buddies can do horrendous amounts of damage then just shrug their shoulders and walk away. My suggestion is to find someone who really DOES understand working on a points/coil ignition system. There are lots of points ignition how to's on the web they ALL are wired the same. Only the colors change to confuse the uninitiated. It is too early to be trying to start the bike anyways. You have several more days of work ensuring various parts are operating correctly. I am currently bringing a 78 back to life. I have one side sparking but am testing components and wiring on the other side to narrow down why it isn't sparking. Key here is test and trouble shoot.

 

[5twins]

Clueless buddy indeed, lol. Just when I think I've heard it all, something new comes along like hooking the fuel line to the engine breather hose, lol. These poor old bikes, it's a wonder any made it through the '90s, let alone lasting till the present day, lol.

 

[projectxs650]

Thanks for all the great input, *definitely putting it to use.

My buddy knows he made a big mistake. It was a accident so I know he didn't mean to do it.he's making it up to me by helping me with the rest of the bike.

I've finally begun reading the Manual, all 218 pages of it. It's amazing to see how much detail is required.

I'm gonna slow it down, with summer wrapping up I've been anxious to get it done in time to enjoy some of the sunshine. Realistically though il be working on it through this winter.

Something though that I'm looking to get some help on is how to actually deal with that fuel that got put into the air/vent tubes. Should I drain the oil ( was already planning to) and that gas will flush out with it? If not, how would I take care of it?

 

[XSLeo]

Yes, draining the oil will remove the gas that got in the crankcase. On the breather tubes, you can unhook them from the breather and pour them out. I doubt you will find much in them.
Any thing that got gas in them can be taken off, anygas you find inside poured out and let it dry, over night should be enough.
Leo