XS650 Clutch Pushrod experiment & tidbits

[dps650rider]

I haven't read this whole thread but since I have had some experience with this I thought I would chime in. My bike is an XS650SE which came stock with the 2 piece rod.

With the stock setup there was a slight adjustment change between cold and hot, I could get a happy medium adjustment that was OK but not optimal at both temperatures.

I tried a one piece steel rod for a while. The clutch feel improved but the change in adjustment was much worse, to keep it working correctly adjustment when hot or cold was a requirement.

I made a one piece rod out of 6061-T6 aluminum and used it for a couple seasons and several thousand miles. With this in place the adjustment change was basically non-existent, I could set it and never even think about adjusting it. Eventually wear became a problem with it but NOT on the ends possibly because I dimpled them a bit to spread out the load.

The wear occured where the pushrod rode in the bearing just under the seal. The way I noticed it was I was getting oil on my drive belt, the play was causing the seal to leak. So I ended up putting the 2 piece setup back in.

If a steel bushing could be added somehow where the pushrod rides on the bearing this problem could be solved.

 

[xs650dreamer]

If a steel bushing could be added somehow where the pushrod rides on the bearing this problem could be solved.[/QUOTE]

there is a bushing behind the seal already, but it does wear out and needs replacing along with the seal.

 

[dps650rider]

there is a bushing behind the seal already, but it does wear out and needs replacing along with the seal.

No, the aluminum pushrod wears where it rides on that bushing.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Dps650rider, thanx for jumping in on this, good info. Will be looking for this on the 7075 rod. Thought about sleeving just that bushing area on the rod, but that means turning down the outer 2.5"-2.7" of the rod and fitting a sleeve. That's a long press fit for a thin sleeve. Plus, that outer portion won't get as hot as the inner part of the rod, being in the air and such. The buckling potential of a thinned rod concerns me, and wanted to avoid that.

Great to hear about the durability of the pushrod ends, that's promising.

The pushrod mainshaft bushing in mine is solid brass, no split like in the replacements. I wonder if the split may have anything to do with that wear. Also, I advocate having the adjuster tip ground flat to avoid unwanted side loads.

Do you still have that 6061 rod? Close-up pics of that wear area would really help...

 

[FrkyMnky]

Im assuming its 7075t6?

 

[dps650rider]

So, this thread got me working on this again after the aluminum pushrod sat on my bench for almost a year. The first picture is as it was when I took it out. The wear made it wobble and leak.

I made a new steel end for it and bored a 15/64" hole into it 1 1/2" deep. I then shortened the aluminum pushrod and turned the end down so it would fit into this hole. Next I cleaned the oil off the surfaces and JB welded it together clamping it in the lathe chuck to insure it stays true until it sets.

 

[xs650dreamer]

I thought you meant you wish there was a bushing to support the rod more. TMX what are the replacement bushing from mike's made from?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Im assuming its 7075t6?

Wasn't specified. Didn't bother with heat-treating it. Figured engine heat cycles would do that...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

So, this thread got me working on this again after the aluminum pushrod sat on my bench for almost a year. The first picture is as it was when I took it out. The wear made it wobble and leak.

I made a new steel end for it and bored a 15/64" hole into it 1 1/2" deep. I then shortened the aluminum pushrod and turned the end down so it would fit into this hole. Next I cleaned the oil off the surfaces and JB welded it together clamping it in the lathe chuck to insure it stays true until it sets.

Great pic of that wear spot! I downloaded it for later scrutiny.

You might've gotten away with less drill depth, but what you have certainly shouldn't pull out. When I was researching shaft retainer adhesives, I came across some no-go's for jb-weld on aluminum. The top performer for my mix of stainless and aluminum turns out to be loctite 648 (hi-temp to 400°F, special agents to handle inert metals like Al and SS, greater than 3000 psi). Next best was loctite 680, same features but 300°F. All I could find locally was permatex shaft retainer 64000, similar, hi-temp 400°F, but without the inert metal activators, so about 2000 psi.

What lathe you got?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I thought you meant you wish there was a bushing to support the rod more. TMX what are the replacement bushing from mike's made from?

Oh, foo... On my smart(stupid) phone, can't easily find those threads. I think it's discussed in one of peanut's "clutch bushing" threads. DogBunny has some (I think) mcmaster-carr split bushings that are longer than stock. Maybe he knows. When I pulled my stock '71 bushing, it drilled like some zinc/tin alloy...

 

[xs650dreamer]

hmmm ill have to message him about that, i want to replace the bushing when i got the new rod. would there be a problem with using a regular seal vs the oem type with the wierd back and lip ? like one with a steal outer and could just use some silicon around it ?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

There's oil pressure behind that seal, about 15 psi cold, darn near zero when hot, so there'll be a few pounds trying to pop that seal on startup, plus a little from rod movement, hence that retaining lip.

Following the seal/bushing replacements recorded here have produced no ill effects, except for new-guy initiation. Get 2 seals, consider it a rite of passage...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

XS650dreamer, this thread may help. Xjwmx mentions that the original bushing is steel.

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30471

 

[xs650dreamer]

There's oil pressure behind that seal, about 15 psi cold, darn near zero when hot, so there'll be a few pounds trying to pop that seal on startup, plus a little from rod movement, hence that retaining lip.

Following the seal/bushing replacements recorded here have produced no ill effects, except for new-guy initiation. Get 2 seals, consider it a rite of passage...

yea ive replaced mine once with no problem, just dont wanna wait a week and pay craxy shipping for it. I have a local place that can get many seals, i was thinking of just trying a regular seal whats the worst that can happen haha

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Sure, give it a try. I'd examine the inner lips, to see if they can tolerate some side deflection, handle the rod's in/out motion without curling, and not have spiral oil control grooves...

(Why do I feel like I'm writing a Playboy article?)

 

[xs650dreamer]

hahahah alright two many ill try it out
wait didnt the original have spiral grooves ?

 

[dps650rider]

Great pic of that wear spot! I downloaded it for later scrutiny.

You might've gotten away with less drill depth, but what you have certainly shouldn't pull out. When I was researching shaft retainer adhesives, I came across some no-go's for jb-weld on aluminum. The top performer for my mix of stainless and aluminum turns out to be loctite 648 (hi-temp to 400°F, special agents to handle inert metals like Al and SS, greater than 3000 psi). Next best was loctite 680, same features but 300°F. All I could find locally was permatex shaft retainer 64000, similar, hi-temp 400°F, but without the inert metal activators, so about 2000 psi.

What lathe you got?

One of these: http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-x-12-inch-precision-benchtop-lathe-44859.html#.UzM4kaLiOZQ

I went deep with the hole because I wanted to get as much expansion with heat as possible. The aluminum fits inside of the steel and the end goes all the way to the bottom of the hole. I tried to just get the JB weld on the end of the aluminum piece so it is just glued at the bottom of the hole but it didn't work out that way.

Today I polished it up where the steel and aluminum meet so it's ready to be installed. Probably going to take a couple seasons again to see how it works out. Looking forward to having a stable adjustment again.

 

[DogBunny]

The one-piece composite rod that TwoMany fabricated and sent to me arrived yesterday. It is a thing of beauty. I put it in this morning, and put just a couple of miles on it to make sure everything was adjusted properly. I de-dimpled the face of the adjuster screw as TwoMany suggested, and I also polished that face.
I had a two-piece push rod, and I had to remove a perfectly good push rod seal to get the middle ball bearing out, and then I had to also remove a perfectly good bushing to get the inner rod out. I replaced the push rod bushing with one of the longer McMaster-Carr ones that I bought a while back. This is the first one of them that I have used. It is 12mm long, and you could go even longer, but 12 is pretty safe.
Thank you TwoMany! That rod is a work of art.
But yeah, dps650rider may be on to something with the all-aluminum rod. I always though the two-piece rods were carefully calculated to match the engine expansion, but maybe the small steel rod was just intended to prevent seal and bushing wear, and an all aluminum rod would better match engine expansion...

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Way to go, DPS! That lathe looks to be a purty good deal, excellent reviews.

Took a close look at your aluminum pushrod pic, derived some measurements to compare with what I'm getting. So far, it looks like that wear groove may have been caused either by the outside/leading edge of a sharp corner of the split in the steel bushing, or grit of screened oil getting caught in that bushing outside edge. Have to do more measurements to confirm.

Are you using 5/16" rod stock, or 8mm?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

DogBunny! Haha, great, an excuse to implement your 12mm bushing mod!

Do you recall the material and plating composition of that new bushing? Probably insignicant with that steel portion going thru there, but can you tell if the split and the inner entry edge is chamfered, or sharp?