Electric Vehicles, Hybrids...Battery tech... Land Air and Sea. Let's See 'em.

Is the internal combustion engine doomed to history

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 25.6%

  • No

    Votes: 21 53.8%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 5 12.8%

  • Don't care

    Votes: 2 5.1%

  • ...er... what was the question again?

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • Total voters
    39
gggGary said:
I was a bit shocked when I insured the Prius Prime. Agent sez it's not EV specific, insurance companies have been losing money for years, repair costs/totalling vehicle costs also going way up.
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I was reading an article yesterday, I can’t remember where, but they were saying that hybrids were less reliable than gas engine only cars. I’m not knocking hybrids here. The reason they stated was because of the complexity of design , the increase in electronics and the fact that there are two complete drive systems with all their various components. It just gives more potential failure points.
 
Mailman said:
I was reading an article yesterday, I can’t remember where, but they were saying that hybrids were less reliable than gas engine only cars. I’m not knocking hybrids here. The reason they stated was because of the complexity of design , the increase in electronics and the fact that there are two complete drive systems with all their various components. It just gives more potential failure points.
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KISS is a difficult rule to break. It applies to just about everything.
 
Mailman said:
I was reading an article yesterday, I can’t remember where, but they were saying that hybrids were less reliable than gas engine only cars. I’m not knocking hybrids here. The reason they stated was because of the complexity of design , the increase in electronics and the fact that there are two complete drive systems with all their various components. It just gives more potential failure points.
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Definitely.
There is a concept in Engineering (which I am) that adding parts makes something less reliable. Especially if reliability is not part of the design criteria. So unless the sum of parts are revolutionary or failure analysis is not taken into consideration and mitigating failures, adding parts decreases reliability.
The ICE part of the Hybrid engines are not really designed any more reliable than than the all ICE engines and the same with the electric part. To some extent the Electric part of a Hybrid is NOT as well designed as the all Electric. So you get more maintenance, less reliability and yup, higher probability of fire. Hybrids are already showing to be more risky for fires. That being said, a NY taxi can save lots of $ by using a hybrid cause its in use all day and in stop/go traffic. Plus their maintenance people can be on the ball and familiar with those vehicles. Hybrids ARE what is used in a Diesel Locomotive. Diesel powers the generator that powers the electric motors.

I WISH it made sense for me to buy a Plug in Hybrid. I'd do it but the cost and failure analysis falls apart every time I research it. I had a friend tell me that when he goes to work, his plug in hybrid Engine only runs the last 5-10 minutes and I said "that is terrible for that engine!". He plugs it in at work and does the same on the way home. With Free power from work he MAY eek out ahead of the game (boy is it a game) but I don't like running an engine that short a bunch.
 
It depends on how you define 'less reliable'.

All components have to ability to fail.
Therefore the more complex the vehicle the 'less reliable' it will be.
This applies when comparing a basic ICE vehicle with one that has all of the latest safety and electronic gizmo's fitted to them which will, due to the added complexity, be 'less reliable'. Due to the simplicity of an electric motor it is, therefore, likely to have less failures than its ICE stablemate.
It would also imply that a full electric vehicle will be more reliable that an ICE one as there are less components to go wrong.

What you also need to take into consideration is how often components fail which is something I've not seen manufactures publish. Without that information it is impossible to draw any conclusions.
Bottom line is we need hard facts not conjecture and second had information.

Fires in EV's make good press and in many cases the article may not have been written by a journalist who has any expertise or knowledge of the subject that they have been tasked by their editor to write about.

Early EV did have issues with batteries but the current crop has safety features built in to prevent thermal runaway. It should also be recognised that the majority of battery fires are in electric scooters and bicycles and that ICE powered vehicle also catch fire.
A study by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency also revealed that petrol and diesel cars caught fire 19 times more often than EVs.

I can only speak as I find and (so far) my hybrid has been totally reliable, will give 45 miles on a charge in the summer (drops to around 30 in the winter, something manufacturers fail to mention :mad:) and is currently averaging 141 m.p.g. In the two years I've had it I've saved around £920 ($1154) in fuel.

Would I go back to a purely ICE powered vehicle? No way.
 
Read the article. One comment of note was that NON plug in hybrids were more reliable than either gas OR electric cars. Let's think for a minute who DOMINATES that market, hmm, thinking, oh wait, TOYOTA/PRIUS!
So :twocents: ONE manufacturer's product is so reliable as to move an entire category's durability against the "more complicated=more failures argument....
 
gggGary said:
Read the article. One comment of note was that NON plug in hybrids were more reliable than either gas OR electric cars. Let's think for a minute who DOMINATES that market, hmm, thinking, oh wait, TOYOTA/PRIUS!
So :twocents: ONE manufacturer's product is so reliable as to move an entire category's durability against the "more complicated=more failures argument....
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To be sure, I have no suspicions about the latest in gasoline powered vehicles being reliable.
 
jetmechmarty said:
Let’s just go with expensive. Modern aircraft are extremely complex and extremely reliable as well. That’s just one example off the top of my head.
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Agreed, if you put more in you would expect to pay more. Also IMO car reliability out of the box, whilst perhaps not up to aircraft standard, is very good.
It's once the humans get the hands on then that they start to suffer.
What I was questioning was the conjecture that hybrids are (allegedly) less reliable that the ICE counterparts and how one would arrive at that conclusion.
 
Been waiting 14 months for our Camry Hybrid - 4 months to go apparently if Toyota get off their arse (seem to be the only manufacturer that cant deliver cars - oh wait lets blame covid).
They have produced millions of the things all over the world - one would hope they have ironed out any problems by now.
They are the only car used as Taxis here in Adelaide and a Taxi driver cant afford to have his car off the road - they wouldnt be using them if they had the slightest reputation of being unreliable.
Having said all that - I have been interested in some of the tech used in the plain old Camry Hybrid.
Electric water pump that only pumps when it has to - electric air con compresssor - electric power steering - no starter motor (M/G 1 is connected directly to the end of the crank and acts as a starter motor) - no alternator - so no serpentine drive belt - no clutch - the Auto trans is not really a CVT - it uses a planetary gear set (apparently no solenoids, pumps, clutches etc)as its "whole" transmission - the brake pedal is not connected directly to the brakes, there is a device that will apply hydraulic pressure if the regenerative system is being overwhelmed and you need to stop in a hurry - the ICE motor is not used full time because the 201 volt battery shares duties with it - the ICE motor uses a miller cycle (not the normal 4 stroke cycle) - brake pads last longer than the car (regenative braking).
Is all the above better/worse/more or less reliable ?? - I dont really know - I will tell you in 10 years time - we have owned a Mitsubishi 380 for 14 years - 228,000 Klms - super reliable - couldnt go back to a car where you have to take it to a garage to get it fixed hence the Toyota brand for reliability.
There are some brilliant You Tube videos of Training centres in America teaching the Hybrid Systems to students - see if you can get the ones with the guy in a wheelchair - the Classroom with all the broken down and assembled components is to die for.
Regards - Ray.
 
Interesting idea.... using EV's to help stabilize the grid during high use periods.

"Ford and GM are also partnering with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) to research bi-directional charging programs. Beyond a single vehicle powering a single home, there's movement toward incorporating EVs into "V2G," or vehicle-to-grid charging. V2G programs typically involve a utility, with an owner's consent, using some of a car's battery power to stabilize the grid during extreme heat events, making the grid more flexible. Roughly 100 V2G pilot programs were launched or being researched in late 2022 when California became interested in wide-scale implementation."

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/1...fer-home-ac-power-possibly-cheaper-than-grid/
 
the fire started in a 2019 Jaguar I-PACE ............
LG batteries
Was a battery/charging fire risk recall on them in June 23
 
Gotta admit, I think about this with the Prius Prime charging in the garage.
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But it's pretty far down the list of things I worry about.
It's a Toyota not a Jaguar built in India.
smoke.jpg
 
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gggGary said:
Hertz plans to dump their Tesla fleet.
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I read that this morning. For some reason , people who are new to electric vehicles seem to crash them at a higher rate than gas engine cars. I have no idea why 🤷‍♂️, then they said the associated repair costs were quite a bit higher. I can imagine that.
 
Mailman said:
people who are new to electric vehicles seem to crash them at a higher rate than gas engine cars.
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https://www.motortrend.com/features/fastest-cars-0-60-mph/
Look through the car list above, note the order is "slowest" to fastest!
They are rocket ship fast. Too many people rent them to experience the acceleration. End the experience piled into an unsuspecting car sitting in traffic.

The all-electric pioneer has built everything from hardcore sports cars to family crossovers to luxury sedans, and all of the above have 0-60 and quarter-mile times that last decade's supercars would struggle to keep up with. The annals of the quickest-accelerating vehicles we've ever tested were once filled almost exclusively with purpose-built (and gasoline-fueled) speed machines, but thanks to electric motivation Tesla luxury sedans can obliterate practically any roadbound exotic to 60 mph, and the automaker's crossovers and Model 3 sedan aren't far behind.
 
gggGary said:
https://www.motortrend.com/features/fastest-cars-0-60-mph/
Look through the car list above, note the order is "slowest" to fastest!
They are rocket ship fast. Too many people rent them to experience the acceleration. End the experience piled into an unsuspecting car sitting in traffic.

The all-electric pioneer has built everything from hardcore sports cars to family crossovers to luxury sedans, and all of the above have 0-60 and quarter-mile times that last decade's supercars would struggle to keep up with. The annals of the quickest-accelerating vehicles we've ever tested were once filled almost exclusively with purpose-built (and gasoline-fueled) speed machines, but thanks to electric motivation Tesla luxury sedans can obliterate practically any roadbound exotic to 60 mph, and the automaker's crossovers and Model 3 sedan aren't far behind.
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Imagine what's possible if that "quest for speed" were redirected into a "quest for range?" :er:
 
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