Issues with first start. Pamco, PMA, Rephase, Fresh build.

WhenInXS

WhenInXS

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NEW ISSUE Post #29

Alright so I know this topic comes up alot (because i've read just about every thread on it trying to self diagnose my issue lol)
Alright so this is going to be pretty much a narrative, for those that stick with me I want to go ahead and thank you now. I'm at wits end here. hopefully you guys can fill me in on what i'm obviously over looking.
Little back ground Bike is an 80 xs650 "running motor" was full of water when i went to change gaskets, so went ahead and rebuilt it got it rephased by hugh and all is well there.

Issue at hand
Everything is mocked up and i've made a mock harness so i can just make sure all is well before I strip and paint. I used this diagram no lights wired in yet just very basic get it running/charging wiring. Also this pic. shows a brown wire ofcourse Hughs PMA only has a red green and three yellows so instead of that brown wire mine is the red.
wiringpamcorephase2_zpsqycjhsdc.jpg


Bike is not wanting to run for more than 10-15 sec. and is terribly hard to even get to start. Almost every time I kick it I here the bump bump of both cylinders firing but apparently not enough to make her run. Carbs are clean and when it dies it seems to die from loosing spark instant kill not like a running out of fuel die. My educated guess is that its loosing spark seeing as I was attempting to run a capacitor I figured maybe the PMA isnt supplying enough power through my kicks (fresh built motor is a PAIN to kick over so much) That to me cleared up both my issues in my head. Not getting hot spark and pma possibly not charging capacitor causing the die once it finally did start. So I hooked up a fresh battery out of another bike of mine. Battery is in great condition and shows 12.96 volts when checked with a multi meter. Figured it would run the bike fine and i could hook the pma back in later to make sure it was charging. Well it's not it is doing the exact same thing and actually hasnt started at all since putting the battery to it instead of the capacitor. Just the same bump bump of each cylinder firing. So hopefully someone can point out a mistake ive mead. I am attaching photos of where my pamco timing is setup and how the coils are wired.

Short and sweet
*Seem to be getting weak spark using capacitor and battery
*motor is grounded straight to bare frame
*getting fuel
*plugs show a little rich but not bad (possibly due to so much kicking and no fire up)
* Basic wiring hot to pamco and coil down to battery (kill switch and 7.5amp fuse in between) pamco grounded and green wire hooked to coil. battery grounded to frame (PMA not currently hooked in)
*fresh known good battery
*motor ran a couple times for 10-15 sec. lots of kicking not much action

Heres a pic of where my pamco is set
20150512_191914_zpswgsttvql.jpg


Coil Wiring
20150512_192029_zpsd7v5tmm8.jpg


another shot
20150512_192054_zpsd86psgty.jpg


Thank you guys for holding on with me through that. I'm hoping some one will be able to shed a little light on something dumb ive done. I tried to be as descriptive as possible but you guys may still need more info please let me know. I know there are alot of really smart guys on this bored and i appreciate all the help i can get. I've kicked this thing so much my foot may never be the same and i've already bent my kickstart lever haha :doh:

Apparently I did not tag this correctly I started a new thread in the electrical section but i guess i needed to tag it as such. Sorry for that. If a mod could please put this over there that would be much appreciated i dont mean to clog up the General discussion sub-forum. Thanks! :thumbsup:
 
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I'm not familiar with that setup, so take this with a grain of arsenic:

I'd reposition the black ground lugs to between the (cleaned) frame and nut/lockwasher.

Could pull the plugs and warm them with a propane torch. Warm, not hot.
Reinstall quickly and try restart. If no change, then ignition. Else, fuel related...
 
I had a customer's bike that had the "blue advance box" mounted near the coils up under the tank. Did similar to what you're describing. I mounted it under the the oem battery box where the RF signals didn't make it shut off.
 
WheninXS,

I would suggest that you review Hughs instructions (again) for the ignition. There are also installation instructions on the web site www.yamahaxs650.com . There are 16 different ways to install the PAMCO 277 ignition but only one of them is correct.

After you have reviewed the instructions, and corrected any errors, then "walk" the engine through the complete four cycles (two revolutions) for each cylinder and check that the trigger magnet just passes over the sensor as the pistons come up on the compression stroke. It's easier if you remove the spark plugs for this procedure to make it easier to rotate the engine and to check for compression.
 
Sounds good pete. I tried to make sure I followed those directions to a T, but you never know. I will go over it again and reply back with the results.
 
Alrighty Pete, I rechecked everything today. I'm attaching pics of my findings everything seems right but maybe you will see something off.

First pic is stator side cylinder at TDC Compression stroke.
20150513_193754_zps9s8ljwle.jpg


TDC Compression stroke, clutch side cylinder.
20150513_194808_zpsltmqmkbj.jpg


Advancing Unit at TDC Compression stroke, stator side.
20150513_200342_zpsuusuyd6q.jpg


Also the rod is able to move in and out when it is tightened. not sure how good of quality this video will be but here's that.
 
video is very choppy, hard to see movement. But it looks like its moving just as much as my mechanical advance unit. About a 64th inch? My bike still runs fine, obviously could better. Did you try with the throttle cracked open? My 1980 motor wont start with any throttle, but my 71 needs a little air.
Do you live near a hill? you could try to bump start it. Then you know the pma is getting enuf revolutions to do something. Be prepared to push your bike up the hill home.
The color of the plugs will tell you nothing at this point. Spray with carb cleaner to unfoul them, and try again. You may wan to pick up a few pairs of plugs. I when thru 3 pairs getting my chop running good.
 
I think that's a good call on the plugs when I pulled them today they where pretty wet looking. I'll clean them and also buy some more (there cheap). I'd say the unit moves about 3-4mm in and out. But I've seen a few people say something about that, seems to be the norm. If anyone knows how to embed a better video let me know and I'll re upload it. As far as the hill idea I've thought about it haha but more along the lines of towing it through the neighborhood with my wife's little scooter lol. Wouldn't that be a sight.
 
WhenInXS,

Those pics of the "walk through" look OK to me, except that you did not verify if the cylinder was connected to that particular sensor.

The recently discovered "wet plugs" may lead to the problem.
 
The L and R marked on the sensor housing is for left (stator side) right (Clutch side) it's kinda scribbled on there. (Damned old paint markers.)
 
Bought 10 new plugs haha 2 for $4 why not. Put everything back together today, however foot was in so much pain couldn't give her a full confident kick. Bringing home an old mx boot tomorrow from the storage unit. Wish me luck!
 
So got ignition figured out. And the bike starts every kick now but will not stay running. Runs at most 10 secs. And the wild part is if I grab a couple handfuls of throttle to kind of "prime it" before I kick her over she kicks over and runs no problem for the 10secs. It seems like there is a direct correlation between how many times I twist her open and how long it runs. For example 3 twist might run 4 secs. While 7 twist runs 10sec. Seems strange to me. I'm running freshly cleaned 76(I think) bs38's (the ones that arnt linked) so my initial assumption would be that it's lean but plugs seem to be pretty sooty when pulled. This is all with the choke on by the way. So apparently my ignition issue has turned to a fuel one... or maybe it was all along haha. I'm going to try a fatter pilot jet and report back. Already tried turning the mix screw out to
2 1/2 turns out. Stock is 3/4's of a turn. Didn't seem to do anything different. Anymore suggestions? Or does anyone know why the throttle twist correlate with the length of time it runs? As im pretty sure these cv's arn't pumpers... when it does die out it spits out some raw fuel out of the carbs aswell. (Open pipes, homemade cloth filters)
 
Lol I know but it's a pretty crazy coincidence it did that multiple times... but anyway yea they were "cleaned" when I got em. I cleaned them a little better all the ports are clear but I just took em off again and going all out this time. Doing new needle jet o-ring (it was terrible on both carbs but doesn't look to have been leaking just old) throttle plate seals (got 2 plate screws, stripped 2
-__- ) and new diaphragms. Doesn't seem to need em but hey I'm sick of what ifs lol. As far as jets pilot is a 45 and main is 130 needle clip is set to the 4th slot.
 
These old carbs need all new rubber in them. Can't assume that anything is good. Whatever you can replace in a carb is good. Hope you have some luck. When I first got mine going the handful of throttle helped. I don't have to do that anymore though. Choke kinda fixed itself. Lol. I still don't think my jetting is correct but the plugs look good and it goes up the road.
 
Motors are pretty tight after a rebiuld. New rings that arentseated yet are a pain. Took quite a few minutes to get mine to fire and idle on its own. Keep trying. You are very close
 

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