Yet another wiring issue with PAMCO

[Opus5150]

***FIXED***Wiring issue woes***FIXED***

Here's another fun PAMCO/PMA issue for you guys. Some background: 1972 xs650 with a 1975 engine. Complete kick only, no battery bobber rebuild. Purchased the Basic PAMCO High Output Electronic Ignition Kit / PMA Package through MikesXS on 6/29/13. Bike fired on first kick and ran OK until this afternoon when it just died on the road. No sputter, no other hints, just dead. Went through all the testing Pamco Pete mentioned on the site. Coil tests fine, capacitor tests fine, resistance as specified to test for looks fine. Everything but the Pamco test. If I rotate the magnet, we see no spark while connected to a good battery. I tried PM'ing and emailing Pamco Pete for some guidance, but I haven't heard anything back from him yet. Bought another Pamco unit from Mikes, but that one fried in less time. I know I'm getting too many volts and killing the Pamco, but I don't know from where. I'm hesitant to drop any more money on another unit until I have a better idea of why it's happening.
We used this schematic for the wiring:

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I hate seeing the bike go unridden.

 

[glennpm]

I don't have anything to offer other than checking all your ground wires. You should also be protecting the Pamco with a 7.5 amp fuse. Your diagram doesn't show that you have one.

 

[ippytattoo]

Your most likely culprit is a reg/rec that is not working correctly causing an overvoltage condition for the Pamco.

 

[retiredgentleman]

In order to test for extra high voltage on the PMA charging, you must separate the power supply of the PMA from the Pamco power supply.

You would use one battery or capacitor for the PMA. Totally separate from this you would have the Pamco powered from a small battery sitting on the floor. This isolates the Pamco circuits from any damaging high voltage.

This allows you to use a VOM to measure the PMA battery or capacitor voltage.

 

[builder]

I don't have anything to offer other than checking all your ground wires. You should also be protecting the Pamco with a 7.5 amp fuse. Your diagram doesn't show that you have one.

And where does it say in the instructions that you have to protect the pamco with a 7.5 amp fuse?

 

[builder]

Here's another fun PAMCO/PMA issue for you guys. Some background: 1972 xs650 with a 1975 engine. Complete kick only, no battery bobber rebuild. Purchased the Basic PAMCO High Output Electronic Ignition Kit / PMA Package through MikesXS on 6/29/13. Bike fired on first kick and ran OK until this afternoon when it just died on the road. No sputter, no other hints, just dead. Went through all the testing Pamco Pete mentioned on the site. Coil tests fine, capacitor tests fine, resistance as specified to test for looks fine. Everything but the Pamco test. If I rotate the magnet, we see no spark while connected to a good battery. I tried PM'ing and emailing Pamco Pete for some guidance, but I haven't heard anything back from him yet. Bought another Pamco unit from Mikes, but that one fried in less time. I know I'm getting too many volts and killing the Pamco, but I don't know from where. I'm hesitant to drop any more money on another unit until I have a better idea of why it's happening.
We used this schematic for the wiring:

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I hate seeing the bike go unridden.

I have pm'd Pete too and that was at least a month ago, dont know whats going on there might have to rebuild the pamco unit myself since the parts are readily available. Still would like some guidance from him though.

 

[glennpm]

Hi Builder,

Pete has highly recommended the 7.5A fuse for protection in this forum a number of times.

 

[pamcopete]

opus5150,

If you are experiencing high voltage from the PMA, then that needs to be fixed. You can't just keep frying PAMCO's. You can buy just the plate with the PC board on the website, www.yamahaxs650.com . If you are going to replace it, then temporarily wire the PAMCO to a separate battery to get the engine started, then check the voltage from the regulator at 3,000 RPM. If it is high, like, 20 + volts, then that will fry the PAMCO. Find out why the voltage is so high and fix that problem before you fry any more PAMCO's

 

[pamcopete]

builder,

Sorry i missed your Email. Let's just start over right here. Tell me again from the top what the problem is.

 

[builder]

builder,

Sorry i missed your Email. Let's just start over right here. Tell me again from the top what the problem is.

Ok so in reading all the Pamco threads maybe we could combine them to a single one. so 7.5 fuse to the unit, I think I will need a new circuit board or I will just buy the igbt or the hall effects sensor, I downloaded the testing specs to check the hall effects sensor and the igbt but send me the board tell me the price. pm me the price I'll give you the shipping address, I need to get this bike running we have a late summer here Alberta and I still have time to sell it. This will be my first Pamco But I dont want it to be my last.


UPDATE : got my backing plate and bolted it in replaced my glass fuse (still the stock one for the bike just rewired into the new bike with less crap to it) FYI I could not find a 1" fuse that was 7.5 amps but I did find a 7/8" fuse close enough. I wish that was originally mentioned in the tech info on your page (7.5 amp fuse ) it would have saved me some cash and time. but that good thing is I see you have done some upgrading on your chipset !

 

[Opus5150]

Thanks for the responses. I've separated the Pamco unit via battery, and I'm seeing 20+ volts coming through the regulator when the RPM's are up. We've toned out and tested all the grounds, so I know those are good. I'm getting a replacement regulator, so hopefully that will solve the issue. (I find it hard to believe that it would have gone bad, but at least I will be able to rule that out).
Also, I have gotten a replacement Pamco unit, hopefully the last one, and will keep my fingers crossed. I will post results when the new regulator arrives.

 

[pamcopete]

Ok so in reading all the Pamco threads maybe we could combine them to a single one. so 7.5 fuse to the unit, I think I will need a new circuit board or I will just buy the igbt or the hall effects sensor, I downloaded the testing specs to check the hall effects sensor and the igbt but send me the board tell me the price. pm me the price I'll give you the shipping address, I need to get this bike running we have a late summer here Alberta and I still have time to sell it. This will be my first Pamco But I dont want it to be my last.

You can buy just the plate with the PC board on line at www.yamahaxs650.com for $63 instead of the full price of $98.95 for the whole system.

 

[XSLeo]

It has been suggested many times to add a voltmeter to the bike. This way you can monitor the battery voltage. If you had one you might have noticed the increase in battery voltage before it damaged anything.
Leo

 

[Opus5150]

***UPDATE*** Received a warranty replacement regulator after contacting MikesXS. Wired it in and ran my voltage tests with the points installed. Seeing 12-13V when at idle, jumps to 14-15V at high RPM. (Voltage dropped after replacing the blown bulbs front and rear). Replaced points with Pamco and tested again with battery isolation. Same voltage results. Removed battery and took the bike on a 45 minute ride, no issues! Seems like the regulator was the issue.
Thanks to all for your help and guidance.

 

[Opus5150]

This is what I've been waiting to ride. Took a year for my buddy and I to build. 1972 XS.

 

[pamcopete]

Glad to see you got it going. As you have seen, the voltage will trend a little higher with the headlight off. That is because the headlight draws most of the current from the regulator. The regulator in a PMA setup works by shunting any unneeded current to ground, which means that it will run very hot with the headlight off, so be sure to always have the headlight on after you have started the engine. That is also why it is important to mount the regulator firmly to the frame to act as a heat sink and to have it positioned so it gets a lot of air flow when riding, because the PMA will produce more power at higher RPM's and the regulator has to get rid of all that excess current by converting the current to heat. Heat, as in HOT, like, frying egg hot or make the coffee hot or solder some wires together hot.

 

[YL82]

That is also why it is important to mount the regulator firmly to the frame to act as a heat sink and to have it positioned so it gets a lot of air flow when riding, because the PMA will produce more power at higher RPM's and the regulator has to get rid of all that excess current by converting the current to heat.

Pete,

Is the excess current/heat issue a concern for the non-PMA folk (stock Alternator) who have a Pamco, Ultimate Coil, E-Advancer and a Standard VR-115 Voltage Regulator (on a 1976C)?

To match up to the VR-115 to the frame mount bolts (which are at like 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock), I made a thick plastic (Spectar) adapter and have the Regulator mounted using rubber bushings, so there is little metal to metal contact for heat dissipation, i.e., Regulator is not firmly mounted to the frame....

Note: I have not had this bike running since installing the Pamco or VR-115, so I have no experience with it to know whether there is a heat issue.

Reason for concern?

 

[pamcopete]

I think you should make a metal plate just like the plastic you show for better heat dissipation. The regulator doesn't need as much heat dissipation as the rectifier, but it does need some. The rubber bushings are also unnecessary because there are no moving parts in the regulator and the rubber bushings interfere with heat dissipation.

The stock alternator / regulator can produce high voltage, like 16 Volts, but that is not enough to cause damage, generally,but it will burn out the headlight. When that happens, the voltage goes even higher because the headlight draws the most current, so when it's gone, the voltage climbs even higher.

 

[YL82]

I can convert to metal easy enough and eliminate the bushings. For whatever reason, I was trying to minimize vibration.... Who knows why?

Thanks, Pete.

 

[pamcopete]

Opus5150,

Being as you have discovered that the problem is not a PAMCO wiring issue, I would appreciate a change to the title of this thread.