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Nylon screws

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by apox, Mar 1, 2011.

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  1. XSLeo

    XSLeo XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    Correct, I used the nylon screws because I used the least expensive reg.
    Using the one you have you won't need the nylon screws.
    Leo
     
  2. I thought I'd get back with a quick update. I've installed the AMC regulator/"Radio Shack" style rectifier/previously enjoyed alternator rotor and the charging system seems to be working great. I'm getting 13.3V at ide and 14.5v at 2000 rpm so I'd say that's a great improvement over the zero charge that I was getting prior to these mods. As I think I mentioned before my stock rotor was measuring virtually zero resistance and my stock regulator was shorted internally (I'm assuming due to the rotor failing) so both of those items needed to go anyway and I thought I'd do the rectifier at the same time.

    Now the next issue that I need to address is the right exhaust is puffing black at idle and it seems to be running a bit rough at idle as well so im thinking the coil is the next place to stop. I should mention that I replaced the spark plugs as well when I changed the regulator. I will test the coils tomorrow and see what I find. It will idle choke off now which is an improvement but with this right cylinder doing the "put put put" at idle with black clouds on each "put" im assuming that the fuel isn't getting burned for whatever reason.

    *note i've mounted the reg by 1 screw for now just for testing. i'll button that up properly later :thumbsup: I also noticed that you can see my new rectifier in this same photo mounted in the stock location. I re-used the stock bolt with the "keyway" type notch in it so that worked out well.

    PS - thanks to all for your help so far. Retiredgent, Leo and everyone else :D
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  3. retiredgentleman

    retiredgentleman XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    Good job on getting the charging system working!

    It would be best now to start a new thread for your latest "black clouds" problem. Provide information such as..............type of carbs, correct jets?, are carbs clean?, float levels set correctly?,...............type of ignition coils, age of coils and spark plug leads,
     
  4. copy that Will do. I'm just in the process of searching the forum to see if anyone else has had the same or similar issues. I'm sure i'll come across something.
     
  5. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    A simple triangle shaped adapter plate can be added to your VR-115 to allow solid 2 point mounting to existing mounts on your battery box .....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I cut a template out of card stock to determine the size and exact hole locations .....

    [​IMG]
     
  6. TwoManyXS1Bs

    TwoManyXS1Bs BBQ Hunter Top Contributor

  7. devildrums

    devildrums XS650 Enthusiast

    Yeah, I have a 77 d and it has the old green/black brushes out of the engine and the new 7 wire reg/rec combo. So after I replace brushes with nylon screws, I should treat the existing stator ground black as a hot wire? Last time I was looking at a diagram and thought someone just used the wrong color and put hot to black, and you know what that means. This why I am rewiring now.
     
  8. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    Whether or not you need the nylon screws will depend on what type of regulator you're trying to use, and to which charging system type ('70-'79 or '80-'83) you're trying to connect it to. The '70-'79 system uses a regulator that sends power on the green wire to the outer brush. The inner brush is permanently grounded through it's 3 mounting screws to the stator casting. The '80-'83 system uses a regulator that sends a ground through the green wire to the outer brush. The inner brush is fed switched power through it's brown wire. It will get power any time the key is on.

    You only need the nylon screws if you try to use the later style ground switching regulator on the early '70-'79 style system. You must change the 3 mounting screws on the inner brush to nylon so you isolate it from ground. Then you change it's ground wire to a switched power wire. The outer brush requires no screw or wiring change.

    So, you need to determine what type of regulator your new combo unit contains, ground or power switching. They are made with both kinds.
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.
  9. devildrums

    devildrums XS650 Enthusiast

    Solid State Rectifier/Regulator 70-79
    [​IMG]This is the one I have from mikes xs in Tampa and I do have the green and black wires out of the stator. The only brown is a direct feed to the combo unit from my battery.
     
  10. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    OK then you don't need the nylon screws, nor do you want the black wire to the inner brush to be power, keep it as a ground. The brown wire shouldn't be a direct power feed from your battery, it should be switched power. Tap into a power feed somewhere after the key so it is switched on and off with the key. The red wire from the combo unit is what goes directly to the battery. It is the power out feed from the rectifier portion of your combo unit and it feeds the charging output to the battery.
     
  11. devildrums

    devildrums XS650 Enthusiast

    [​IMG]This is the example I am referring to. The first box has what my bike was, and when you switch to the combo unit the black becomes brown. I was told that the color change is supposed to be a different brush assembly, but if you do not have that you need to convert that black wire to brown, thus using the nylon screws, which is why I was sent to the nylon screw thread in the first place. I wish they had a more clear description and picture of my scenario, since even the description says "for later models". Thanks a lot for your input.
     
  12. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    The black wire on the early brush set-up becomes brown only if you switch to a later style combo unit for the electronic ignition models that contains a ground switching regulator. Then you have to do the nylon screw mod as well. But that's not what you're doing. You have a new combo unit but it is the correct one for the early brush set-up. It contains the correct power switching regulator. It will get wired in just like the original separate regulator and rectifier. That would be like the box on the left in your drawing. It shows the wiring as I described it - brown after the ignition switch so power on it will be switched on and off, red before the switch so it feeds directly to the battery.

    But, parts are easily swapped on these bikes. You should probably positively I.D. you stator and brush set-up to make sure it is the earlier '70-'79 version. It would look like this. Brush wires will be green and black, and the timing marks will be cast into the stator housing .....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    On the later style stator, the brush wires will be green and brown, and the timing marks are on a separate little plate attached to the stator housing with a screw .....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. devildrums

    devildrums XS650 Enthusiast

    I do have the early 70-79 brushes, and even put in new ones while I had it apart, but hooked up the direct way I am getting no charge and it will not magnetize while in the harness. I unplugged it and put power directly to the stator wires and it magnetized, so I have to change something in the wiring, unless I am missing something. What is the best way to test the charging system after it is hooked up?
     
  14. 5twins

    5twins XS650 Guru Top Contributor

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    I don't know what you mean by "... hooked up the direct way ...". Simplest way to test the charging system is to measure the voltage at the battery. Start the bike and at idle, you should be seeing around 12 volts or so. Rev the bike up to 3K or 3500 RPMs and the voltage should increase to around 14 to 14.5. No change in voltage when you rev the bike indicates you're not charging. The charging output is RPM based. You don't get much at low RPMs.
     
  15. devildrums

    devildrums XS650 Enthusiast

    Sorry, direct way meant the picture with the black wire. I have it hooked up the way the diagram i got from mikes xs says to. This is supposed to be with my original black wire setup. And sorry I know how to check the charging, was more looking at how to find what is not working. Like I said, replaced the brushes, it gets magnetized through direct current, and diode check seems to be ok, but other than that have no idea what else to check. [​IMG]
     
  16. devildrums

    devildrums XS650 Enthusiast

    I changed out to nylon screws and It did squat, so I am beginning to think my Mikes xs #24-2089 reg/rect combo is bad. Its brand new but you never know.
    I did a voltage test from one thread and got the battery reading on brown but nothing on the green with the key on.
    One quick question though;
    Are you supposed to lose the magnetism when you put in the nylon screws? Couldn't find an answer anywhere, but it would make sense if you remove the ground from the black wire. When I put the metal screws back, the magnet was restored with direct power, but still nothing with the combo plugged in. Just trying to get it charging again, because the re-wire is done and it cranks and runs perfect. Thanks.
     
  17. XSLeo

    XSLeo XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    I might suggest you not try the combo units from Mike's. Several have had trouble with them.
    On Ebay search for a Fiat regulator and a 3 phase rectifier. You can find these inexpensively.
    A few minutes to wire up and work very well.
    I'll check my receipts to see if I can find the ones I bought.
    Leo
     
  18. XSLeo

    XSLeo XS650 Guru Top Contributor

    Couldn't find receipts, so did a bit of searching Ebay.
    I found a Fiat 124, 78-80 VR794 Ebay Item #122128766123 for $10.49+$3.71 s+h.
    The rectifiers if you order from China start at around $2 shipped. US only they start around $6 shipped. The US only are the second style and start at 40 amps. Plenty for our 16 amp system. The other style can be gotten in smaller amp ratings. As small as 25 amp.. Still fine just takes a long time to get here.
    I'll post some pics.
    #1 is the Fiat regulator. This is the one is the style I bought, there are others style that look much different, look bigger or mount inside the alternator.
    #2 is one style of rectifier. It need to be mounted on a heat sink to be sure it stays cool.
    #3 is another style of rectifier. This one is cased in it's own heat sink. So mounting is not quite so critical.
    This set up is for the later bikes but can work on the early bikes by doing the nylon screw mod.
    Leo
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 3, 2019
    GLJ likes this.
  19. 650Skull

    650Skull SSSSSSSSSlither Top Contributor

    This thread has caused more complications than it has solved problems..............

    It should be renamed ...................."A type 80-83 TCI SS Reg/Rect conversion to a B type 70-79 Points model Ignition System"

    B type Regulator, (70-79US, 70-82 other countries with points models).......Read RG's posts for the 70-79 Automotive regulator used in conjunction with a bridge rectifier.
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/regulator-rectifier.21485/
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/pre-1980-regulator-non-nylon-screw-version.10699/#post-109435

    A type regulator.........80-83/4 TCI Ignition models
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/type-a-regulators.48296/

    How to wire in an aftermarket 70-79, (US points models years) Solid state reg/rect for a points model xs650.
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/wiring-in-a-70-79-combined-reg-rect-to-a-points-model-xs650.52339/

    Information and good explanation on how to determine the differences between the 2 types of systems, A or B and read 2M's post on the stater differences
    http://www.xs650.com/threads/nylon-screws.43874/
     
    TwoManyXS1Bs likes this.

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