2003 Royal Enfield 500 Deluxe

Jim

Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
12,570
Reaction score
47,524
Points
813
Location
Kansas City Mo.
The clips, I like to deal with by pressing the open side (while on needle) directly against a hard surface to pop them off (same against closed end going on).
I did the same back when I had carbs with adjustable needles. I always laid a rag across 'em before I pushed down. The flight time of those clips is actually quiet impressive. :cautious:
 

MaxPete

Lucille, Betty, Demi & Gretel: I ask, THEY decide.
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
8,799
Reaction score
25,728
Points
688
Location
near Harrow, ON, Canada
I did the same back when I had carbs with adjustable needles. I always laid a rag across 'em before I pushed down. The flight time of those clips is actually quiet impressive. :cautious:

How true.....particularly when they are headed towards an eye - or under a workbench. :wtf::cussing:
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Tinkering continues. Today, started the bike - took four or five kicks first time and had to use the mixture richener, then immediately pulled it off again. Reluctant to run. Each time, it would sound very promising, run well, take a few revs as I tried to keep the engine running and warm it up. Sound just fine. But then, revs would die, couple of spits and give up. To me, this feels more like a misfire than poor mixture?

This is how the plug looks.

PICT0452.JPG

Looks like too rich. But remember that I used the richener initially and the engine did not run long enough to warm up.

The changes the other day - larger pilot jet and needle raised one notch - have certainly made the mixture richer. But the symptoms, suddenly coughs, spits, dies, are similar to what it did before fiddling with the carb. When we thought the problem might be weak mixture.

So I'm back to thinking about the ignition side. Think I set the timing up fairly accurately using the piston stop method; I've adjusted it slightly to-and-fro but probably not enough to worry an antiquated old engine like this.

Maybe the mis-aligned points will give a weak spark - a photo would not show, here's my crude diagram:

PICT0455.JPG


The fixed and moving points are parallel but don't fully meet up. Would this seriously affect the spark? Put the old points back in again?

Another worry is the oil getting into the distributor. Can't see any on the points but there's definitely enough for a little bit to collect at the bottom of the points cover. Would oil in there cause a misfire?

Beginning to wish I hadn't said I bought this bike for tinkering . . .
 

Jim

Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
12,570
Reaction score
47,524
Points
813
Location
Kansas City Mo.
Point misalignment like you describe most likely isn't causing any problems Raymond. As long as they're clean, polished and dry... a little misalignment won't hurt. We're only talking 2-3amps passing through em.
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Thanks, Jim. Today, had another go at setting the gap - it was probably a bit too wide but think it's now fairly close to 14 thou.

Can get the bike to start fairly readily and as long as I leave the throttle alone it will settle into a very slow - too slow - chugg, chugg, chugg. Teensy-weensy bit of throttle will raise that slightly, but even a millimeter of throttle to raise it to a fast tick-over and after a few seconds it gives up and dies.

The plug is black. Think I might have gone the wrong way making things richer. Tomorrow, I'll try going the other way - smaller pilot, maybe needle back to middle groove, see how that goes.

Mrs is fed up with how long this is taking and making new suggestions about buying a new RE Classic 350. Or at least riding the other bikes and leaving tinkering till Winter.
 

Jim

Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
12,570
Reaction score
47,524
Points
813
Location
Kansas City Mo.
The plug is black. Think I might have gone the wrong way making things richer. Tomorrow, I'll try going the other way - smaller pilot, maybe needle back to middle groove, see how that goes.
A suggestion.... unless you have reason the know otherwise, try to stick to 1 carb jet change at a time. For instance, say you change the pilot and needle.... and it gets worse. Which one made it worse... the needle or the pilot? Maybe it stayed the same 'cause one change helped and 't other went the wrong way.
I'd suggest leaning the pilot first. That's gonna have the largest affect at, and just off tickover.

Another point... iggy problems can look jus' like carb problems and vice versa. Trying to adjust both at the same time ain't helpful.
 

GLJ

Never go faster than your guardian angle can fly.
Top Contributor
Messages
3,329
Reaction score
13,735
Points
513
Location
Dixon IL USA
Each time, it would sound very promising, run well, take a few revs as I tried to keep the engine running and warm it up. Sound just fine. But then, revs would die, couple of spits and give up. To me, this feels more like a misfire than poor mixture?
Just to throw a couple of other things to think about.
How is the float level? Could it be high enough that the vibration of the engine running is causing it to flood.
Also if you have a timing light watch the flash and see if it breaks up when the bike dies.
Just more food for thought.
A quick check on the float level is turn the gas on to fill the bowl. Then shut it off. Start the bike, keep it idling for a minuet or so and then see if it will rev up.
 

46th Georgia

XS650 Junkie
Top Contributor
Messages
711
Reaction score
2,468
Points
243
Location
The Okefenokee Swamp
A suggestion.... unless you have reason the know otherwise, try to stick to 1 carb jet change at a time. For instance, say you change the pilot and needle.... and it gets worse. Which one made it worse... the needle or the pilot? Maybe it stayed the same 'cause one change helped and 't other went the wrong way.
I'd suggest leaning the pilot first. That's gonna have the largest affect at, and just off tickover.

Another point... iggy problems can look jus' like carb problems and vice versa. Trying to adjust both at the same time ain't helpful.
My old boss at Brumos Racing had the same theory on making multiple changes at the same time. Listening to him saved me a lot of headaches.
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Update. Yesterday, mode only one change - went back from 30 to 25 pilot jet. Started the bike - in fact, must have started it maybe 60 times? It starts fairly readily, sounds good but won't take throttle, runs for a few seconds, then sneezes or spits and stops. Longest I had it running, perhaps 30 seconds?

Plug is black, wet even, smells of petrol.
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Well, made what feels like progress. This eternal conundrum - is it electrics or is it carburation?

Obviously, having just fitted a new carb, I'm concentrating attention on the mixture. But the bike runs for a few seconds up to maybe half a minute then it quits and feels like a misfire. Plug wet and black.

Yesterday, decided to go through the ignition system again. Check my timing marks, check when the points open. Off with the primary cover, collect the ATF, use my homemade TDC tool. Yup, my pen marks are still visible and they are correct. Turn the engine with a 1" socket on the alternator and using a test light, confirm that the points open 10° btdc. For the first time, use my advance-lock tool - you move the points to full advance, screw the tool on and it holds that position. At full advance, the light comes on at the 32° mark.

So far so good. While I was in there, decided to refit the original condenser and points - they meet up better.

The power feed to the points uses a little clip and the wire was looking frayed, altogether a bit sorry for itself. Took it apart and this happened:

PICT0456.JPG

Sorry about the out of focus picture. That wire next to the pen is the points power feed and the little clip just fell off as I undid it.

I think a dodgy connection to the points might account for the engine quitting.

Have made up a new wire, able to re-use the little clip - opened it up, cleaned it off, folded it over the end of the new cable and soldered it good. All back together, started the engine. It started easily, ran for a minute or so, then coughed and spluttered a few times and died.

But I feel I have eliminated an electrical problem which was causing, uhm, a problem. Ran out of time, but feel that I'm going to be able to work through setting up the carb without having a pesky electrical gremlin confusing the issue.

Onwards and upwards. Been a few days since it felt like that . . .
 
Last edited:

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Today, checked voltage reaching the points through new feed wire - reading was 13.06v. Also checked voltage reaching the coil - reading was 13.06v Shouldn't be too surprised they're the same, both are wired directly off the kill switch. Checked again with ignition off and to my puzzlement there was a voltage showing. It was low, like 0.4v but wtf . . . and then I realised what I was seeing was probably the leakdown of the coil's capacitance.

Checked resistance across the coil's two primary terminals - 3.1Ω

Used Elliot's spark tester to see what the spark is like - jumps 9mm but no more. I don't know if that is a weak spark or perfectly OK for an old British/Indian single? Blurb with the tester said spark should jump at least 15mm but they might be writing about motor cars.

Anyhoo kick the beast into life. Still started easily but run for a few seconds, maybe up to half a minute. Persevered and found it was happiest if the throttle was left alone. Don't touch! Even the slightest opening would cause the engine to hold back or stop.

Leaving the tap shut and tinkering with the throttle stop, eventually had her ticking over quite nicely for maybe 5-10 minutes. Long enough to warm the engine up a bit. But any throttle, no, don't want that. Figured that this was because I lifted the needle, so I set it back down. The carb now has the settings it was supplied with.

Result? Still doesn't like tiny throttle openings but open it up to 1/4 in one clean move and the engine revs. Hallelujah! Progress. Now I know the engine will respond to throttle and re-start readily, I was confident enough to go for a couple of short test rides. The thing I was most worried about was pulling away at junctions, but it was fine. I think, once it benefits from some more, fine tuning/tinkering the bike is going to respond to the bigger carb.


PICT0479.JPG



The breakthrough was finding the almost-broken-barely-holding-on feed wire to the points. Fixing that has been the main thing and the bike is not too far off with the new carb on the recommended settings. Feels like it must be transition from pilot to needle has a problem.

And I'm still not ready to trust it further than I can push it . . .
 

jpdevol

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,363
Reaction score
2,868
Points
263
Location
26187
Just for reference: old Yamaha min. spark gap test for coil was 6mm. I know you've upped pilot to 30 (?), perhaps it wants more??
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
This would be a good time to mention extra-flexible and heatproof wire that ignition makers liked to use to get around this kind of problem.
It's still available from auto-wire stockists.
Grimly, searches are just giving me HT leads - do you have an example? For now, thin tracer wire will probably suffice.

Just for reference: old Yamaha min. spark gap test for coil was 6mm. I know you've upped pilot to 30 (?), perhaps it wants more??
JP, that gives some reassurance. I guess cars use much higher voltages? In the dim & distant past, I've heard 30,000v for a car and 12-15,000 for a bike?

Mind you, the spark on Elliot's 1978 Honda XL250 was jumping a 17mm gap!
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Thank you, Van Islander! There are obvious alternatives such as sell the flaming thing and buy something that works. But, while that is obvious to everyone else, it never seems right to me - you bought this thing, you gotta make it work now.

Leaving the problems keeping the engine running for another time, decided today to modify the clutch for better pull. Heard on the Unofficial RE Community forum that replacing the clutch lever with one off a Kawasaki GPZ500 would give longer pull, where longer pull would translate to better plate separation. But couldn't find the lever I needed on-line. There another bloke said, if you need longer pull, just bend the clutch lever - heat, long tube, pull it in one smooth motion.

Hmmm. Don't think that sound too feasible - given the dog-leg shape of the lever, it's not obvious where to bend it, plus more likely I would just go ooooops, snapped it off. But it got me thinking. Always dangerous. Maybe I could modify the clutch lever, file a bit of metal away so the lever would move further.

File away here in fact:

PICT0490.JPG


First, cut a straw to record the pull at present:


PICT0487.JPG


I know, this gets a bit high-tech. Then file metal away, and re-measure the gap:

PICT0491.JPGPICT0488.JPG


Sorry about the picture, but there's a gap of about 4mm so that's how much more pull I'll get pulling the lever right in to the grip. Which will translate to about a gnat's dick at the clutch plates. But even that will surely help with selecting neutral? Maybe . . .

Must go and get the thing running proper.
 

Raymond

likes to play with old motorbikes
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
10,782
Points
513
Location
Scottish Borders
Must go and get the thing running proper.
Yeah? Good luck with that . . .

The usual - starts readily enough but won't keep running. Managed to keep her running long enough to warm the engine up, fiddled with the throttle stop, seems to tick over ok, fetch helmet & gloves, set of to the next village. Got about mile-and-a-bit, bike started to feel very 'flat', pulled the clutch out, revs die, try more throttle, try less throttle, we coast to a halt, no engine. Won't re-start either. Shorley this heap . . . slow down, getting agitated ain't gonna help . . . yes, you are going to have to push the bike home.

Actually, the bike runs so free, able to climb on and coast down the very slight hill.

There's a speed warning sign at the edge of the village, normally flashes your speed in red and exhorts you to SLOW DOWN! Today for a change told me in green 16 MPH THANK YOU! Once again, the Enfield has made me laugh . . .

I'm back to thinking it's a lack of spark or maybe spark too weak. Investigate tomorrow. Got a pal coming to stay over next week - perhaps between the two of us?

This is Saturday. Immediate plans, open a nice bottle of red.
 
Top