charging system dead

[blank slate]

Sigh...

I've been having issues with this bike regarding the battery and stalling at red lights. So I bought a new regulator from oregonmotorcycle. Got rid of the old fuse box and switched to blades. Bike was running great at first. But I went on a ride and bike died at a red light, battery dead; and realized the issue was not the regulator. My mechanic friend said the charging system was not charging my battery and showed me how revving the bike did not increase the charge on the battery, it was simply sucking the battery dry. My AGM battery was also drying inside. No water! So the charging system was malfunctioning. I saw a video where a guy cleans the golden rings, so I tried that. I started the bike and my stator/rotor started smoking! Ok turn that sht off, unhook the battery, and now I'm going to buy a 200 watt PMA from mikesxs.

Am I doing the right thing? Please tell me I'm doing the right thing... cry

Also this sucks that I spent $200 on a regulator when the mikesxs kit includes a regulator. Oh well. I'll have a extra in case someone wants to buy it.


PS: is there a difference between the Hughes / TC Bros / Mikesxs PMA's? They all look the same to me, however Hughes does throw in a few more goodies.
This video was awesome to watch: http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/xs650-permanent-magnet-alternator-kit-pma-fits-all-years.html

 

[gggGary]

Nope buying a different system is not the best course. We have a decent trouble shooting thread that will at least let you find out what the real issue with your charging system is, then you can decide to fix or replace. See if you can wade through this then ask questions as needed. Trust me troubleshooting an existing system is easier than changing your wiring to match a new system.
You came up against the first rule of troubleshooting; rarely can you buy your way out of fixing electrical problems. You first have to understand how the system works then use methodical testing to find where the problem is.
A quick hint or two. most common problem; worn brushes, $15 and and half an hour, fixed, done.
Measure the rotor; ring to ring, SB between 5 and 6 ohms.
Often neglect of the motorcycle leads to a charging system trying to do the impossible;
(charge a bad battery) It will die trying. the rotor overheats and the coils short out. Then the koolaid gang says oh that stock charging system is BAD you need to change it (to a different type of system that has a different set of issues)
I have fixed and rode at least 15 XS650s ALL OF THEM of them are working perfectly, on stock charging systems!

 

[weekendrider]

Often neglect of the motorcycle leads to a charging system trying to do the impossible;
(charge a bad battery) It will die trying

True this.

 

[MaxPete]

I feel your pain Blank Slate (most of us do...just ask DanielBlack about charging system troubles)...but there is a big (huge, massive) gap in your story - and I'll betcha it is the source of your troubles.

Before everyone jumps down your throat about the evils of PMA kits, I have to ask: did you check the alternator brushes?

They are little 5mm square cross-section spring-loaded chunks of sintered copper about 15mm long - WHEN NEW - but they wear as they rub on those "golden rings" you mentioned. Once they're less than about 7mm in length, all charging stops and you have to install new ones. They are not expensive - around $15/set - and changing them is a 15 minute screwdriver job.

NOTE: you didn't tell us the year of your bike - and there is a difference in the brushes between early & later bikes. I'm not sure when the change took place, but it IS important to get the correct brushes for your year. The Gurus can fill in this info, I'm sure.

Anyhow, I've done this job back in the 70s, at night, in the rain, in the middle of friggin' nowhere, sitting on my @ss in the mud on the shoulder of the Perth Road about 4km north of Westport (north of Kingston, ON) with a very wet and angry girlfriend standing by.....but don't get me going.

The brushes live inside the alternator cover on the LH side of the engine and you'll need a #2 JIS screwdriver to change them. DONT use a Phillips driver - it looks like it fits - but it doesn't and can damage the tiny little screws that hold the brushes in place. BTW - don't drop those bloody screws - they're small (and again, don't ask how I know this).

Since you're in Canada, the easiest way to get a good set of JIS drivers is to go to www.gofastinnovations.com.

The cost is $24.95 for the 3-piece set - shipped right to your door or Superbox via Canada Post in about three days from London, ON. FWIW, I have no connection with these folks at all - but I've bought two sets of their JIS drivers recently and they're good to deal with.

Cheers and don't despair,

Pete

 

[weekendrider]

I started the bike and my stator/rotor started smoking!

This leads me to believe it may be something more than short brushes, dirty slip rings or a dead rotor.

 

[gggGary]

I recently bought a grab bag of untested electrical parts from the classies here.
2 stators, both had one worn out brush, they tested good, TCI pick ups good also.
1 Rotor; tested, good
1 combined reg/rec the red terminal in the connector was overheated and weak replaced the terminal, installed on period piece with a volt meter and it works perfectly.
2 TCI units, cleaned up and test rode each for 20 miles, both work perfectly.
2 TCI ignition coils, both tested good, one ride tested, works perfect.
I think all of this was removed when a bike builder changed to "better" systems....

 

[gggGary]

Electrical smoke is not good, what are the odds the regulator purchased is not the correct regulator for the year of bike? (we don't know the year yet)
OP please post some pics especially inside the LH round cover.

 

[MaxPete]

Smoke....!!!! Oh sh!t - I missed that little tidbit in the first post.

Dang - check the brushes later. Sort out the smoke issue first.

Sorry for the bum steer Blank Slate.

Pete

BTW - Gary is an EXCELLENT source of parts.

 

[blank slate]

my bike is a 78 special.
i did see the charging system writeup and went as far as doing the slap test. it did have a magnetic pull but wasnt very strong imo.

 

[jetmechmarty]

This sounds to me like the rotor is shorted. A shorted rotor will drain the battery in a hurry. A strong battery and no resistance means the smoke has got to come out someplace.

What is the resistance reading between the copper rings?

 

[blank slate]

i have not yet checked out the brushes. ill get to that today hopefully.

i have no idea how to take the rotor off without that special tool.

the regulator i bought VRREM7-XS was specifically made for the 650. however their website seems offline today. http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/Reg_rec_units.html

 

[jetmechmarty]

You don't have to remove the rotor to test it. Meter set to ohms. One probe on one ring, other probe on the other.

 

[weekendrider]

You can test the rotor on the bike.

 

[blank slate]

i got the multimeter out. set it to 200 ohms. i touched the two ends together and get a resistance of 0.3 ohms

i apply the multimeter to the rotor and after the reading bounces around a bit, it settles on 1.0 ohms. tried many different parts of rotor and it still says 1.0 i saw a video where the guy says it should read 4-5 ohms.

so my rotor is dead?

 

[jetmechmarty]

i got the multimeter out. set it to 200 ohms. i touched the two ends together and get a resistance of 0.3 ohms

i apply the multimeter to the rotor and after the reading bounces around a bit, it settles on 1.0 ohms. tried many different parts of rotor and it still says 1.0 i saw a video where the guy says it should read 4-5 ohms.

so my rotor is dead?

Yes! This is a very simple fix. Send the rotor to Custom Rewind in Alabama. It will last almost forever. The short has to do with insulation technology of the time the rotor was made. New stuff is way better.

BTW, your rotor is an electromagnet. It needs variable DC current from the voltage regulator to create the magnetic field. It's a very good system and better than a PMA, IMHO.

 

[gggGary]

i have not yet checked out the brushes. ill get to that today hopefully.

i have no idea how to take the rotor off without that special tool. You must use the special tool, there is no other way without wrecking rotors. Look at the side of the rotor you can see the windings covered by a smooth honey colored layer of varnish, if the varnish is black and bubbled or even charred, odds are high the rotor has been fried. getout the VOM and measure ring to ring.

the regulator i bought VRREM7-XS was specifically made for the 650. That does seem to be the right replacement for the separate regulator rectifier "early" type charging system you have. Hopefully the shorted rotor has not wrecked your replacement reg rec with the excessive load it apparently created. See note above about "random parts replacements" without troubleshooting. This is why no vendors will take returns on electrical parts!
Most electrical "problems" are often at least two problems, one failed part tends to destroy another part or a "fixer" messes up something else trying to find the first problem.
When re-installing the stator; pay close attention to the small pin in the crankcase at about 7 o:clock, the stator frame notch must align with the pin before tightening the bolts.

 

[blank slate]

jetsmcarthy: ill give it a shot!

gggary: yesterday i must have not aligned it properly and when i tightened the case i slightly cracked the case on the left side. i still want to cry

 

[gggGary]

While old tech varnish tends to get blamed for rotor failures I'm fairly certain as mentioned above that the number 1 killer of rotors is guys continuing to run motorcycles with bad batteries, causing the charging system to put out full output continuously, trying to make up for the bad battery, that causes one or more components to fail.

 

[retiredgentleman]

blank slate......................$200 on a regulator........................you got robbed!

 

[gggGary]

PS your quick responses and following and reporting on suggestions made is a joy to behold, THANK YOU! Really! It's rare to get a guy doing this and reporting on what he finds so quickly and well.