HELP, cant get it to start for the life of me

[Dann]

Hey everyone. I'm new to this forum but have been searching on and off for the last week or so trying to find a solution to why my XS650 wont start.

Here's the rundown. I purchased a 78 XS650 bobber a couple weeks ago and it ran fine when I bought it. I took it out last week to work for the first time and noticed it was hard to kick start. (Ever since I got it I have had trouble kick starting it. I would sometimes kick it about 10-15 times before it fires but once it fires it was fine) I went to the store and came out and had to kick it 5 times to get it running again. I was only in there for maybe 15 minutes but once it fired it ran smooth. I got to work and by the time I was leaving it would not start for the life of me.

I ran a compression test after I got it home and its showing 60 on both cylinders which I thought was real low. This is with the carbs off the car. I took the carbs and cleaned them out. I adjusted the floats to close (was leaking some gas) and replaced the float cover gaskets. I also swapped the spark plugs and tried to start it again with no luck. I wanted to test if I had spark so what I did (didnt really know how to check for spark) was I pulled the plugs and left the wires connected. I did this around midnight to make sure it was dark. I turned off all the lights and tired kicking it a few times. If there was a spark id assume I would see a small flash of light for a split second right? I could be crazy here in my assumptions but in the end no matter how many kicks I did not see any spark. I went on to replacing the points with two new ones the seller gave me. I did not adjust the timing yet. Tried again and still no spark. I dont know how to test the electrical system and I dont know how to set the timing on this bike. I'm going to try to follow this thread this weekend to set the timing

http://www.650central.com/fsetting_pointstype_ignition_on.htm

but I was wondering if anyone has a simplier way of setting the timing or if thye could chime in on what might be going on and how to trouble shoot it.

The bike is running batteryless and has the xscharge system with teh stock points ignition. I dont know how to hook up a timing light since there is no battery and without a battery I cant really test to see if I have power to my multi-meter to do the points adjustment can i?

I attached some photos of the bike and the parts i'm working with. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[figure8]

That compression reading can't be right. Get a battery and disconnect everything, wire just the coil and points to the battery and see what happens. Easier to simplify things just for the sake of getting it to start.

 

[grizld1]

The timing light doesn't have to be powered by the bike's battery; any 12V battery will work. Pull your car battery out, set it by the bike, hook up the power leads, and do the needful. Gap and static time the points before you try to fire up and use the strobe; you'll use the ohm meter to read when the points open, no need for power. For specs, download the relevant parts of the factory service manual from http://www.biker.net; it's free, thanks to the generosity of Jean Akers. Do your homework, search and read until you understand the procedures.

Check your oil level. If it's high and the oil smells of gas, the cylinders could be fuel scoured. Pull one spark plug, hold the throttle wide open, and repeat the compression test; kick until the needle won't move any more. If you still read 60 lbs., you're in for some serious expense and work.

 

[retiredgentleman]

You can set the points just using the ohmmeter part of your VOM.

The carb intake manifolds show that the barbs are uncapped. If they are like that when trying to start, that would make the mixture lean, and hard to start.

If you lack experience with these type of carbs, you have not done a proper carb cleaning. The choke supply orifice in the bottom of the float bowls may be plugged, and that would make for hard starting for sure. You would also have to check for the correct jets, etc.

Since the engine only has 60 psi compression, you can forget about points set-up and carb cleaning for now.Once the engine top end re-build has been done, you can move onto those items.

Edit:
You should check that the valve clearances are correct, and then re-do the compression test.

 

[Dann]

figure8 - when you say wire the points and coil directly to a battery I assume you mean the coils that go into the spark plugs? So the spark plug wires go form the plugs back to a black box under the gas tank. I assume I will see a couple + - wires coming from that box that I can run straight to a battery? How do I run the points to the battery once I have the coils connected?

 

[Dann]

You can set the points just using the ohmmeter part of your VOM.

The carb intake manifolds show that the barbs are uncapped. If they are like that when trying to start, that would make the mixture lean, and hard to start.

If you lack experience with these type of carbs, you have not done a proper carb cleaning. The choke supply orifice in the bottom of the float bowls may be plugged, and that would make for hard starting for sure. You would also have to check for the correct jets, etc.

Since the engine only has 60 psi compression, you can forget about points set-up and carb cleaning for now.Once the engine top end re-build has been done, you can move onto those items.

yes I am highly unfamiliar with these carbs. My cleaning procedure was to take the top plate off both carbs, remove and clean the rubber bows and the pin its connected to. I then went and remove the float cover. I checked the tiny holes in the center of each of those brass or copper lines in between the floats in the middle of the carbs. I made sure the floats moved freely and did not have gas in them indicating a cracked float. I made sure all the pins moved freely.

Do you really suspect I need to rebuild the top end? The compression was good when I bought it although I didn't check it myself unfortunately. The guys still contacts me so I took his word for it and it was running prefect the same day it would not start. Since its not starting I cant test the compression when its warm and The compression test tool I have is form harbor freight so I assume there could be some issues there.

I'm having a hard time believing the compression is actually 60psi. That is just wayyy to low.

 

[madjap]

You are on the right track with testing the spark at the plugs. MAKE SURE the plugs are grounded good to the motor when you turn the motor and you should get a spark. If not, recheck your ground. I just did mine by LIGHTLY but TIGHTLY clamping the plug to a head bolt using my vicegrips. I did mine in a lighted shop and could still see and hear the spark. I'm gonna guess you have some electrical grounding issue somewhere. I know that's vague, but FIGURE8 is absolutely right. Start simple and get to the basics of what makes a motor run. Since it runs smooth WHEN it runs, it kinda sounds like an intermittent electrical problem. You can do it, just read and test; rinse and repeat.

 

[figure8]

I've never run points but I believe they should be wired to the coil already, yes the black box that the plug wires run to. Do a search of wiring diagram on here, you'll find what your looking for. I'm saying your best is to eliminate headlight, taillight etc to just focus on ignition and getting it running. That way your not chasing you tail with other components. Just to add, without a battery are you keeping the headlight off until it's running? Headlight draws a lot, needs to be off until running on a battery less system.

 

[Dann]

I've never run points but I believe they should be wired to the coil already, yes the black box that the plug wires run to. Do a search of wiring diagram on here, you'll find what your looking for. I'm saying your best is to eliminate headlight, taillight etc to just focus on ignition and getting it running. That way your not chasing you tail with other components. Just to add, without a battery are you keeping the headlight off until it's running? Headlight draws a lot, needs to be off until running on a battery less system.

Yes I leave the headlights off until it starts. I will search for a diagram or toy around with it tonight to see what kind of wires are coming out of the box. Thanks

 

[Dann]

You are on the right track with testing the spark at the plugs. MAKE SURE the plugs are grounded good to the motor when you turn the motor and you should get a spark. If not, recheck your ground. I just did mine by LIGHTLY but TIGHTLY clamping the plug to a head bolt using my vicegrips. I did mine in a lighted shop and could still see and hear the spark. I'm gonna guess you have some electrical grounding issue somewhere. I know that's vague, but FIGURE8 is absolutely right. Start simple and get to the basics of what makes a motor run. Since it runs smooth WHEN it runs, it kinda sounds like an intermittent electrical problem. You can do it, just read and test; rinse and repeat.

ahhh I didn't think of grounding the spark plug. I just had it sitting on the seat when I kicked it and saw no spark. I will try taping or securing it to exposed steel on the motor and run the test again to see if I have spark.

 

[Dann]

The timing light doesn't have to be powered by the bike's battery; any 12V battery will work. Pull your car battery out, set it by the bike, hook up the power leads, and do the needful. Gap and static time the points before you try to fire up and use the strobe; you'll use the ohm meter to read when the points open, no need for power. For specs, download the relevant parts of the factory service manual from http://www.biker.net; it's free, thanks to the generosity of Jean Akers. Do your homework, search and read until you understand the procedures.

Check your oil level. If it's high and the oil smells of gas, the cylinders could be fuel scoured. Pull one spark plug, hold the throttle wide open, and repeat the compression test; kick until the needle won't move any more. If you still read 60 lbs., you're in for some serious expense and work.

can you give me some insight onto what fuel scored means? I will check the oil tonight. It was clear when I check last night but I did not think to smell it to see if it smelled like gas. for the compression check, I ran the test with no carbs on, isn't that similar to running the test with carbs on and a wide open throttle?

 

[Dann]

Hey everyone. I'm new to this forum but have been searching on and off for the last week or so trying to find a solution to why my XS650 wont start.

Here's the rundown. I purchased a 78 XS650 bobber a couple weeks ago and it ran fine when I bought it. I took it out last week to work for the first time and noticed it was hard to kick start. (Ever since I got it I have had trouble kick starting it. I would sometimes kick it about 10-15 times before it fires but once it fires it was fine) I went to the store and came out and had to kick it 5 times to get it running again. I was only in there for maybe 15 minutes but once it fired it ran smooth. I got to work and by the time I was leaving it would not start for the life of me.

I ran a compression test after I got it home and its showing 60 on both cylinders which I thought was real low. This is with the carbs off the car. I took the carbs and cleaned them out. I adjusted the floats to close (was leaking some gas) and replaced the float cover gaskets. I also swapped the spark plugs and tried to start it again with no luck. I wanted to test if I had spark so what I did (didnt really know how to check for spark) was I pulled the plugs and left the wires connected. I did this around midnight to make sure it was dark. I turned off all the lights and tired kicking it a few times. If there was a spark id assume I would see a small flash of light for a split second right? I could be crazy here in my assumptions but in the end no matter how many kicks I did not see any spark. I went on to replacing the points with two new ones the seller gave me. I did not adjust the timing yet. Tried again and still no spark. I dont know how to test the electrical system and I dont know how to set the timing on this bike. I'm going to try to follow this thread this weekend to set the timing

http://www.650central.com/fsetting_pointstype_ignition_on.htm

but I was wondering if anyone has a simplier way of setting the timing or if thye could chime in on what might be going on and how to trouble shoot it.

The bike is running batteryless and has the xscharge system with teh stock points ignition. I dont know how to hook up a timing light since there is no battery and without a battery I cant really test to see if I have power to my multi-meter to do the points adjustment can i?

I attached some photos of the bike and the parts i'm working with. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

should I cap those barbs? I did notice when I bought the bike those barbs (i assume the vacuum line looking pins right near the carbs) were left open like that. I can put a rubber cap on them and see if that changes anything. Thanks

 

[figure8]

This should help.

 

[retiredgentleman]

yes I am highly unfamiliar with these carbs. My cleaning procedure was to take the top plate off both carbs, remove and clean the rubber bows and the pin its connected to. I then went and remove the float cover. I checked the tiny holes in the center of each of those brass or copper lines in between the floats in the middle of the carbs. I made sure the floats moved freely and did not have gas in them indicating a cracked float. I made sure all the pins moved freely.

Do you really suspect I need to rebuild the top end? The compression was good when I bought it although I didn't check it myself unfortunately. The guys still contacts me so I took his word for it and it was running prefect the same day it would not start. Since its not starting I cant test the compression when its warm and The compression test tool I have is form harbor freight so I assume there could be some issues there.

I'm having a hard time believing the compression is actually 60psi. That is just wayyy to low.

You said the compression was good when you bought it................how did you know it was good??

You said you had 60 psi compression, so I took you by your word. If your compression tester is not working, or you don't know how to do a proper compression test, then all bets are off. Even with a cold engine, you should see 130 psi or more for an engine in decent condition.

Maybe you need to get someone, who has engine maintenance experience, to help you do the compression test.

 

[retiredgentleman]

should I cap those barbs? I did notice when I bought the bike those barbs (i assume the vacuum line looking pins right near the carbs) were left open like that. I can put a rubber cap on them and see if that changes anything. Thanks

Yes, the barbs must be capped.

 

[Dann]

You said the compression was good when you bought it................how did you know it was good??

You said you had 60 psi compression, so I took you by your word. If your compression tester is not working, or you don't know how to do a proper compression test, then all bets are off. Even with a cold engine, you should see 130 psi or more for an engine in decent condition.

Maybe you need to get someone, who has engine maintenance experience, to help you do the compression test.

yes i took his word for it. He seemed like a good guy but it was a mistake on my part for not checking myself. I never did a compression check before but bought a kit just to be on the safe side. When I did check at home both cylinders were at the exact same compression. 62 or so PSI. I'll probably use the compression tester on my honda which starts fine and see if it reads higher than 60 to rule out any issues with the test itself. As for performing the test I simply took off the carbs completely, took one plug out and plugged the tool in a kicked 5-6 times and it would not go past the 60 mark.

If I missed something please let me know. I dont know of any mechanics in my area familiar with compression testing so I'd have to tow it to a shop to get it done correctly.

 

[5twins]

Does the bike kick through easier than it did when you got it? If so, your compression could be low now. What worries me is if you have been running it with those vacuum ports on the carb manifolds open. As mentioned, that would create an extreme lean condition and that could have hurt the motor. You need to cap those ports.

It just amazes me that people can build such pretty bikes but mess up the mechanical aspects so much. But we see it here quite often. Looking at your pics, I see several other bad things. Like where's the holder for your throttle cable sheath? How does the throttle even work like that? And I see no fluid reservoir for the rear brake. Is it supposed to work off just the small amount of fluid in that little clear line? Dude, it wasn't designed to work that way, lol.

I also notice in your pics that the choke is on. Is that how you've been running it all the time? If so, choke on and open vacuum ports, you could have very well burned up your top end.

 

[Dann]

Does the bike kick through easier than it did when you got it? If so, your compression could be low now. What worries me is if you have been running it with those vacuum ports on the carb manifolds open. As mentioned, that would create an extreme lean condition and that could have hurt the motor. You need to cap those ports.

It just amazes me that people can build such pretty bikes but mess up the mechanical aspects so much. But we see it here quite often. Looking at your pics, I see several other bad things. Like where's the holder for your throttle cable sheath? How does the throttle even work like that? And I see no fluid reservoir for the rear brake. Is it supposed to work off just the small amount of fluid in that little clear line? Dude, it wasn't designed to work that way, lol.

I also notice in your pics that the choke is on. Is that how you've been running it all the time? If so, choke on and open vacuum ports, you could have very well burned up your top end.

ahh well that sucks!!! I only leave the choke on when I start the bike. the throttle cable holder was removed. I didnt put it back on since I removed the carbs to clean it. That one I was aware of. Yes the rear brake master cylinder came liek that witht he clear tube as the res. I knew the rear brake sucked and that is probably the issue but I was more concerned about the starting.

Damn those pin holes were left open the day I took it out. I rode it about 80 miles like that and who knows how long he rode it like that. I'm going to assume with that issue as well as the low compression I could be in for some major work.

Im going to try and get it started first by doing the points timing adjustment with a real battery and starting there. If I can get it started again I'll let it warm and re-test the compression when warm and see how that goes.

as for the kicking. It still kicks like it used to. Still pretty hard. I dont feel a difference there from when I bought it until now.

 

[5twins]

You can get a pack of these 7/32" vacuum caps at the auto parts store. They are the perfect size. You still need to retain them somehow though. A fart or backfire through the carbs can blow them off. Use some sort of small clamp, spring clip, or a wire/cable tie .....

Hopefully you haven't hurt anything. Get spark again and maybe things will be OK. I can't believe it ran very well with those ports open. Usually, the bike pops and spits like crazy. That's how you know to look and see if a cap has gone missing.

 

[figure8]

You can get a pack of these 7/32" vacuum caps at the auto parts store. They are the perfect size. You still need to retain them somehow though. A fart or backfire through the carbs can blow them off. Use some sort of small clamp, spring clip, or a wire/cable tie .....

Hopefully you haven't hurt anything. Get spark again and maybe things will be OK. I can't believe it ran very well with those ports open. Usually, the bike pops and spits like crazy. That's how you know to look and see if a cap has gone missing.

Yep, good catch on that. I've actually had one blow off while approaching a stop sign and knew immediately. Took me 5 minutes to find it, lol.