Leak advice

[Guss80special]

Hi. So I’m hoping for some advice with a leak. I noticed the other day about 2 tbls of oil under the engine. This is more than normal. It does leak a bit normally. I thought it was the clutch push rod seal and do plan to replace. But now I’m worried I have bigger problem.
2 weeks ago I jacked the bike up with a 2x12 under the frame to put on some gaiters. After, I noticed some small dents in the wood where 2 of the case nuts are. And now (2 weeks later) I’m seeing more oil than usual.

Q: would a clutch oil seal leak in the dead of winter? Would the sump filter cover leak more with changing temps? Calgary gets lots of variations. Sometimes 20+ degree C changes in 24 hrs. I did replace sump gasket, 6 bolts and filter last sept. Maybe I didn’t clean the surfaces good enough?

Do you think I buggered the acorn nut? And would it leak from there? This is a case bolt right?

Note, upper acorn was already crushed a bit. PO did have crash, so likely from that.
Oil seem to drip mostly from that 3rd non acorn nut (finger). Another case nut?

Last fall folks on here thought that a drip there indicates clutch push rod seal issue. I agree, as it leaks lots when warm,but would it leak in the winter like this stored on the center stand?

Also. “2Many” thinks that the lower acorn looks suspect. Thanks for any tips!

Thx.
Pics attached.

 

[5twins]

That nut and stud you're pointing to shouldn't leak any oil. The hole the stud goes through doesn't open to the inside of the motor anywhere. The acorn nutted studs with copper sealing washers can leak. That's why they have the copper sealing washers on them. there are 6 of them .....

But, your pic doesn't indicate any of the acorn nuts leaking. The area around them would be washed clean like it is around where it is leaking.

If you installed a new gasket on the sump filter plate, you may need to re-torque the bolts. They can come loose after a new gasket install once that gasket compresses some.

 

[gggGary]

Those oil leaks are sneaky bustards. Pull the the LH cover, look for a nice clean trail of aluminum going up to where the leak starts from. There is normally oil behind the clutch push rod seal, on the side stand it's a downhill path, out around the seal and down the motor to drip off a stud nut. Your photo shows some real clean looking aluminum up under the cover. Very cold makes rubber seals very stiff. Just a (somewhat educated) guess. Check that the drive sprocket is TIGHT while you are in there. Check not just the nut but the sprocket for loose.

 

[5twins]

Indeed they are, lol. When I first got my bike, it was like the Exxon Valdez on 2 wheels, lol. It took most of a seal kit and a gasket set to put a stop to it.

 

[gggGary]

Confession I've tried to stop a bottom case stud leak a time or two but never won til I went searching higher up on the motor.
in more or less common to rare order;
push rod seal
oil drain plugs
sump gasket
final drive shaft (loose sprocket)
tach drive seal
tiny bolt on rear of cam cover yeah the path can lead all the way to a bottom stud nut.
other head gasket, cam chain adjuster, valve cover leaks that travel down.
starter gear case gasket.
bad thead or loose nut at base of oil delivery tube
Cracked case from a chain skipping over a worn drive sprocket.
LH crank seal.
side oil filter seal
clutch cover gasket.
I'm sure there's a couple more.
I've got a couple that are house broken and one with a "damp" area.

 

[Guss80special]

Awesome. Thanks guys. That list of suspects should keep me busy for the rest of the winter gggGary

So 5Twins are you saying you took a gasket AND a seal kit to your sump cover? permatex or similar?

7 lbs torque seems very loose and I did use a new gasket. so ya. I’ll go in there and re torque.

I read your great thread on the clutch seal replacement gggGary. I’ve gotten as far as grinding the sharp edge down. Still seems too tight to slip it in without damaging the new seal. Lots a grease/lube I guess eh? Straight in with a flat tool vs. Working it in gently eh?

 

[Guss80special]

Yup 5T. The acorns are very dirty so you are correct - not leaking. Thx.

 

[motormike]

Care must be taken... the bottom engine half is very thin... it doesn't take much to crack. I'v seen several over the yeas that was either drop'd not to gently in the back of a trunk... or lift'd from the bottom to raise the machine. One had a quarter inch of goo... sealant ... in a attempt to hide the crack.

 

[gggGary]

Awesome. Thanks guys. That list of suspects should keep me busy for the rest of the winter gggGary

So 5Twins are you saying you took a gasket AND a seal kit to your sump cover? permatex or similar?

7 lbs torque seems very loose and I did use a new gasket. so ya. I’ll go in there and re torque.

I read your great thread on the clutch seal replacement gggGary. I’ve gotten as far as grinding the sharp edge down. Still seems too tight to slip it in without damaging the new seal. Lots a grease/lube I guess eh? Straight in with a flat tool vs. Working it in gently eh?

I think he's saying a complete set of engine seals and gaskets LOL
chamfer the hole edge, use a suitable socket, 3/8 drive 17mm will be about right. yes I like lube, some guys use yamabond or such. no big deal if the small ridge on the outside gets shaved off that's NOT where they leak.
5twins advocates grease only on the sump gasket, that has worked for me also, no adhesive type sealers. I haven't tried it yet but recently saw plumbers teflon pipe dope recommended. seems like it should work well. Very careful on those bolts the right ones are designed to snap off before you strip the threads in the bottom case! Many don't understand how clean (but not gouged) those aluminum flat surfaces need to be. I nearly always end up spending 20 minutes on my back with taped utility blade cleaning the crankcase surface the first time I replace a sump filter on an engine.

 

[Guss80special]

Thank you. Yes. I know they snap easy ‘cause I broke one back in the summer. Ugg. Got lucky though, there was enough sticking out to grab!

So where do the push rod seals leak then if not out the sides? Btw the rod and seal?

 

[Sci85]

That pushrod seal leaks from the inner hole that seals against the pushrod itself. I too had a leak that at first I couldn't figure out since I had replaced all the gaskets and the pushrod seal when I had the engine apart. It turned out it was the pushrod bushing was worn which allowed the pushrod to move around enough to let oil leak past the seal. Using the guide found on the forums, I carefully pulled the seal and the pushrod bushing and replaced them both. I also put in the one piece pushrod. It didn't move around nearly as much after that and it stopped leaking finally. What also makes that hard to see is when it leaks, the oil gets caught up in the chain movement and slung around so it's hard to see exactly where the leak is coming from. I say check the play in the pushrod and if it moves around, replace the bushing and seal.

Good luck!

 

[Guss80special]

Thank you! I’ll give it a go.

 

[gggGary]

Believe it or not but I don't think this field has been plowed!
Many of us advocate a "less than the manual calls for" initial clearance on the clutch worm gear take up screw. This offers two benefits; the first is better clutch action. The second is that helps keep the clutch rod closely centered between the ball bearings at each end when assembled. In concert with the "early type" one piece push rod, keeping the rod running true between centers reduces side loads on the seal and improves the sealing action. IMHO that bushing is no big deal they were a sloppy fit FROM THE FACTORY. Part of the seal replacement involves chucking the rod in your drill press and removing the rough area/ridges caused by dirt wearing away the rod at the seal interface. If the rod is worn very much replacement is a good plan. I keep meaning to make some replacement push rods from 5/16" cold rolled stock but it hasn't happened yet. Turning carefully centered dimples to fit the balls at each end, and polishing the seal area will be part of this. I think this would be a good place to try working in some of my just received tungsten di-sufide powder. I wonder if adding a tang to the rod out near the worm so the rod NEVER spins would help? !! ?

 

[Guss80special]

Good points! I just ordered the long rod as well as oil plug washers, and extra clutch push rod seals.
I noticed small oil leaking around one plug even after having drained all the oil and re inserting plugs and tight to 30 lbs. Time for new washers!!! Thanks gggGary

 

[xjwmx]

2 weeks ago I jacked the bike up with a 2x12 under the frame... And now (2 weeks later) I’m seeing more oil than usual.

I had something like that happen after I had the weight on the front drain plug. I was using a thin gasket under the sump plate and the weight moved or bent the sump plate enough to cause some leaking. You might try loosening and re-tigntening the sump bolts. Of course check that one nut for tightness; I wouldn't loosen it first. Oil is not coming from from anyplace where it would have to go uphill to get to where you see it.

 

[5twins]

The usual suspects are under that left cover. You have 3 oil seals and a gasket in there that can leak, a 4th oil seal if you count the one on the crank. But I would put that crank seal at the bottom of the "leak list". Top of the list and pretty much tied for 1st place would be the clutch pushrod seal and the countershaft seal. As mentioned, the countershaft seal often leaks just because the sprocket nut has come loose. The seal itself is still fine. Make sure the countershaft nut is tight before messing with it's seal and replacement. And by tight, we mean really tight, like 70 to 90 ft/lbs tight.

 

[Guss80special]

More great tips. Thanks guys! It will be a week before I get the parts, do some work and pore oil back in. Keep you posted.

 

[xjwmx]

Is oil only where you show it in the pic? If it has to travel very far to get there, some will drip off first and appear elsewhere. If it's coming from under the side cover there should be a bead at the 90^ between the two faces. Also, some places like the pushrod seal and probably the countershaft and crank for that matter aren't going to leak if the bike hasn't been running.

 

[Mailman]

Confession I've tried to stop a bottom case stud leak a time or two but never won til I went searching higher up on the motor.
in more or less common to rare order;
push rod seal
oil drain plugs
sump gasket
final drive shaft (loose sprocket)
tach drive seal
tiny bolt on rear of cam cover yeah the path can lead all the way to a bottom stud nut.
other head gasket, cam chain adjuster, valve cover leaks that travel down.
starter gear case gasket.
bad thead or loose nut at base of oil delivery tube
Cracked case from a chain skipping over a worn drive sprocket.
LH crank seal.
side oil filter seal
clutch cover gasket.
I'm sure there's a couple more.
I've got a couple that are house broken and one with a "damp" area.

I've had this image in my computer for a long time. I poached it from a thread long ago, don't remember who created it but it's a nice visual for common sources of leaks.

On my bike, every one of these spots were leaking and have been addressed , with the exception of the shift shaft.

 

[gggGary]