More Ethanol in fuel

Jan_P

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I have not followed that debate
I have always just pumped the gas here either 95 Octane or sometimes 98 Octane
Since the 70 ies not thinking much of it
Nov 1/8 1 Aug the 95 is out and are being replaced with E10
with 10 % ethanol
Whereas the 95 had 5 % Ethanol ( Didn't even know that )

The Motor historical association here does state that problems can follow ( internet translation )

Implications for historic vehicles

The Swedish Motor History Association states that the higher the mixture of biofuels, the greater the consequence for the historic vehicles:

A higher blend of ethanol in the petrol means a lower energy content in the fuel, which in turn means higher fuel consumption. This means that we will have to refuel our vehicles a little more often.
On older vehicles, the fuel mixture becomes leaner with the new fuel, which can lead to poorer cooling and higher temperature in the engine. Driving can be affected in the form of ignitions ( MIsfiring ) . The starting capacity can also decrease, especially at lower temperatures. Under load, the risk of spiking increases due to the leaner fuel mixture.
The materials in the older vehicles are not designed for current and future fuel blends. It can affect the diaphragms in fuel pumps, fuel hoses and gaskets. Some of these may simply dissolve.

Measures to take for the vehicle owner

Check the rubber parts regularly. Replace for preventive purposes.
Rearrange ( Jetting ) the carburetor to meet the lower energy value and the increased fuel consumption so that the right fuel-air ratio remains.

Option 98 octane (instead of E10)

98 octane will remain. Here, the ethanol mixture can amount to a maximum of five percent. This is the mix that most vehicles can handle today, even the older vehicles.

If a XS 650 is a Historical vehicle can be debatable
And the 98 might not be sold at all places
Also into Diesel systems claims that the ethanol can have more water content and affect rusting

So not knowing how the US fuel content there can be the explanation to the Carburetor problems in the US
And as I understand it this development is going to continue with more and more ethanol or other replacements

So horror story the tank will rust up over the winter and the fuel line rot up and every rubber part in the carburetor destroyed in a short time .. To exaggerate
New jetting and new ignition timing after each change.

Apologize if this is somewhere already .But i thought I put it here .Can help someone
Fex when storing a bike it is more important getting the higher water contents out as well as the rubber dissolving fuel

What I can tell this is something escalating.

Fossil-independent vehicle fleet and other intricacies

By 2030, Sweden's vehicle fleet will be completely independent of fossil fuels. By fossil fuels is simply meant oil, coal or natural gas. But, it is now only 15 years ( Old article ) until then and if a car lives an average of 17 years, it is quick to calculate that it is starting to burn a little in the knots.( in a hurry )
 

X77S

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98 octane? Regular unleaded here is going to E15 soon at 87 octane. Premium is also same ethanol rating and is usually 91 octane. Of course your country may calculate octane differently.
 

Jan_P

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98 octane? Regular unleaded here is going to E15 soon at 87 octane. Premium is also same ethanol rating and is usually 91 octane. Of course your country may calculate octane differently.

So I have been using at the most 5 % Ethanol in worst case .95 Octane --Less if 98 Octane
And not done that so many years ( Not certain )
Premium and regular terms was used here but not since the 70 ies

And you in the US are now going to 15 % from 10 %.. ??? i would assume.
Perhaps this is a ( one ) reason I have not heard about Gummed up and Rusty carburetors
Adding the warmer climate
Now if this goes to 15 % and after that further There is perhaps problems coming .?? Re jetting ?? Ignition adjusting ???
O - ring replacing ???
So my coping strategy if possible will be to stay clear from the E 10 ..if the better alternative will be sold.
What I know so far ...Not using E15 for you Gentlemen over there sound as a plan
 

X77S

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I guess I had it somewhat incorrect. As it is now we have E10 available everywhere. Some stations still have ethanol free but its 40 to 50 cents extra. Apparently, E15 will soon be available and I assume will eventually take over all the E10. We had E85 available for a few years, I havent seen it around in central Kansas for a long time. Just didnt catch on. When I get my bike on the road I will probably pay the extra $.50 per gallon for the no ethanol gas.
 

Jim

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When I get my bike on the road I will probably pay the extra $.50 per gallon for the no ethanol gas.
That's what I'm doing. I'll use the ethanol stuff when I'm out and about and have no other choice (That's only happened once). Other than that I'm using the ethanol free stuff.
Here's my (unscientific) experiment with the ethanol free stuff. Skip to comment #42 for the results.
 

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What I learned with my unscientific test convinced me to never run E-anything in a carbureted engine. That video confirms that decision.

I don't think we have that choice over here . . .

EDIT I've been looking at on-line discussions of availability of ethanol-free petrol in Britain. A few of the big oil companies say their premium fuels will be continue to be supplied ethanol free but not in Scotland, Wales, N England or SW England. The Government offers a compatibility checker for cars and motorcycles. Says Kawasaki W800 from 2011 onwards can run on E10. Says all Honda motorcycles from 1993 can run on E10 - mine is 1988. Says all Yamaha motorcycles from 1990 can run on E10. Mine is 1978, well, the engine is 1980.

For other vehicles, ie those that are not E10 compatible, the Govt suggests using E5 which they say is available at many stations.

So that's what I'll do then.
 
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JesseeS

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I need to run higher octane in by big bore monkey and a fellow rider turned me on to pure-gas.org. Should give a list of ethanol free stations in the US and Canada. Good to have on the go if you like to choose
 

jetmechmarty

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What I’ve found in Mississippi is that E0 is available and easy to find. Mostly, it’s only available in 87, (R+M/2), but some places have higher octane available. My Stihl equipment has a 89 requirement, but seems OK on 87. Where I lived in Georgia, most of the E0 was labeled Rec 90. I believe that’s 90 octane recreation fuel. My stock XS650 seems to be fine on 87, even though the book says 91 octane leaded.
 

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I don't think we have that choice over here . . .

EDIT I've been looking at on-line discussions of availability of ethanol-free petrol in Britain. A few of the big oil companies say their premium fuels will be continue to be supplied ethanol free but not in Scotland, Wales, N England or SW England. The Government offers a compatibility checker for cars and motorcycles. Says Kawasaki W800 from 2011 onwards can run on E10. Says all Honda motorcycles from 1993 can run on E10 - mine is 1988. Says all Yamaha motorcycles from 1990 can run on E10. Mine is 1978, well, the engine is 1980.

For other vehicles, ie those that are not E10 compatible, the Govt suggests using E5 which they say is available at many stations.

So that's what I'll do then.
Psssttt..... hey buddy.... want some ethanol free petrol? Make your own. :sneaky:


 

Adamc

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I have not followed that debate
I have always just pumped the gas here either 95 Octane or sometimes 98 Octane
Since the 70 ies not thinking much of it
Nov 1/8 1 Aug the 95 is out and are being replaced with E10
with 10 % ethanol
Whereas the 95 had 5 % Ethanol ( Didn't even know that )

The Motor historical association here does state that problems can follow ( internet translation )

Implications for historic vehicles

The Swedish Motor History Association states that the higher the mixture of biofuels, the greater the consequence for the historic vehicles:

A higher blend of ethanol in the petrol means a lower energy content in the fuel, which in turn means higher fuel consumption. This means that we will have to refuel our vehicles a little more often.
On older vehicles, the fuel mixture becomes leaner with the new fuel, which can lead to poorer cooling and higher temperature in the engine. Driving can be affected in the form of ignitions ( MIsfiring ) . The starting capacity can also decrease, especially at lower temperatures. Under load, the risk of spiking increases due to the leaner fuel mixture.
The materials in the older vehicles are not designed for current and future fuel blends. It can affect the diaphragms in fuel pumps, fuel hoses and gaskets. Some of these may simply dissolve.

Measures to take for the vehicle owner

Check the rubber parts regularly. Replace for preventive purposes.
Rearrange ( Jetting ) the carburetor to meet the lower energy value and the increased fuel consumption so that the right fuel-air ratio remains.

Option 98 octane (instead of E10)

98 octane will remain. Here, the ethanol mixture can amount to a maximum of five percent. This is the mix that most vehicles can handle today, even the older vehicles.

If a XS 650 is a Historical vehicle can be debatable
And the 98 might not be sold at all places
Also into Diesel systems claims that the ethanol can have more water content and affect rusting

So not knowing how the US fuel content there can be the explanation to the Carburetor problems in the US
And as I understand it this development is going to continue with more and more ethanol or other replacements

So horror story the tank will rust up over the winter and the fuel line rot up and every rubber part in the carburetor destroyed in a short time .. To exaggerate
New jetting and new ignition timing after each change.

Apologize if this is somewhere already .But i thought I put it here .Can help someone
Fex when storing a bike it is more important getting the higher water contents out as well as the rubber dissolving fuel

What I can tell this is something escalating.

Fossil-independent vehicle fleet and other intricacies

By 2030, Sweden's vehicle fleet will be completely independent of fossil fuels. By fossil fuels is simply meant oil, coal or natural gas. But, it is now only 15 years ( Old article ) until then and if a car lives an average of 17 years, it is quick to calculate that it is starting to burn a little in the knots.( in a hurry )
Spot on Jim.
E5 is already disappearing from UK supermarket forecourts.
E5 is still available but you have to look around smaller garages to get it.
Classic vehicles are getting even harder to keep alive.
 

Jan_P

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If i have read this right the Physics is that ethanol ..can catch water into it
And water is impossible to avoid there is air with water content going into the tank and at the filling station
It can come with the pump. So even if the machine can run with or without adjustments
It is not good . Water is also heavier than petrol so it can be pockets with water ethanol at places in the
system
XJ 900 had that problem rusting low back in the tank without ethanol
Adding the gaskets and rubber components at risk
E5 is available at some stations
 

Raymond

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Raymond, Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 which is E5 will be unchanged and available at most Esso service stations after E10 is introduced. But it may not always be available in every service station. I just found one near me on my normal riding route.

See: https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels-faqs

Thank you for this Adam, but at https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol Esso states:

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

So, I'm snookered on that one.

And I can't really see me borrowing a car, heading off to buy my fuel in a container, swilling it with dyed water, waiting 12 hours, titrating the water & ethanol out. Apart from the effort involved, it doesn't fit with how I use my bikes, like going places so very often have to fill up miles away from home.

E5 will be my best bet.
 

Paul Sutton

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I also saw the comment before listing the link, but cannot find what it really means?? Does it mean in the areas listed the Ethanol content will be 5% or just a small amount of cross-contamination?? It is still a better option than 10%.
 

Raymond

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I also saw the comment before listing the link, but cannot find what it really means?? Does it mean in the areas listed the Ethanol content will be 5% or just a small amount of cross-contamination?? It is still a better option than 10%.

Dunno. Perhaps it means they will only be able to base their Synergy fuel on E5 in those regions which would probably be due to the level of sales/turnover not justifying having a 0% ethanol product line. That seems more likely than cross-contamination. Probably means the Scottish refinery at Grangemouth won't be making any 0%.

So if I find Synergy in Scotland & N England, it will probably have - up to - 5% ethanol.

I will suss out which stations locally have E5 and not worry too much about finding Esso Synergy or Shell PowerPlus or what have you.
 

gggGary

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Occasionally running ethanol gas will REMOVE water that may be lurking in the bottom corners of your fuel tank and harmlessly pass it through the motor.
Remember HEET? LOL
I found some pretty big holes in that video's methodology. Kinda felt he was out to prove a preconceived conclusion. Removed paint from random aluminum? LOL Not much scientific method followed or divulged.
I mostly run premium in my motorcycles. Shrug and only use "recreational" or non ethanol in my 2 stroke trimmers chainsaws etc. Mainly cuz some Stihl rubber parts are NOT alcohol compatible and that equipment may sit unused even in summer months for long periods. The shed kept Farmall just gets E10 regular like all the lawnmowers and it has a gascolator so I see whats at the low point. I clean the gascolator bowl regularly, say once every 7-8 years. :sneaky: That is an 80 year old steel tank that's always left half filled. I may have "drained" it when I replaced the worn out gascolator about 10 years ago. The lawn mower gets the dreadful old gas I drain out of barn finds mixed in with good fuel. Goes from the MC tank into a plastic gas can then I pour off the top stuff into the lawnmower so the worst stuff stays in the plastic can. I'm so fastidious.
I spent some time degunking a 75 tank that had THICK varnish rust build up this week. Poured TSP dissolved in water in the tank left it for several hours heated with a waterheater electicral element. followed up with some electrolysis. Kinda quit and gave the tank away before it was "ready to use" but did that simularly gunked up Hondamatic tank the same way and ran it hundreds of miles using just the stock fuel filters with zero issues. I would probably line both those tanks before long term use, the metal had significant corrosion.
 
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Paul Sutton

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I drained the Virago Carbs last week and didn't find a drop of water and never have. It's got to be the extra long air path to the carbs. There was always a drop or two in my XS SH carb bowls which have a short air pathway in comparison. Those running foam socks or pleated filters will probably see more water.

Reminds me, must check my emergency generator has the carb drained, Winter is on its way. I know I drained the tank and sprayed it with WD40.
 

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A) You won't see liquid water in water contaminated ethanol fuel until the amount of water exceeds the amount the alcohol can absorb. The alcohol holds the water in suspension so it is not separate from the fuel to be visible. It still corrodes the crap out of stuff.

B) All fuel in the US by law has to contain a oxygenated additive. Originally that was ether ethanol or MBTE. MBTE was such nasty stuff it was banned some years later. When first introduced, several retailers had a notice on the pumps that the fuel "would" cause leaks and possible fires in older vehicles . The feds quickly moved to ban the notices on the pump.

C) I have not been able to find out what the oxygenated additive is in ethanol free fuel. I worry that the replacement could be worse than ethanol like MBTE was. The refinery on the Houston ship channel that made MBTE had so many leaks of the stuff caused by it destroying gaskets in the piping that Deer Park reeked of MBTE.

D) Octane ratings in the US are calculated by a formula devised in the early 70's when unleaded was introduced to disguise how crappy the new fuel was. From what I've read the US premium 93 octane fuel is similar to EU premium. Wikipedia has a good page about gasoline around the world.

I can tell you from experience that the 650 likes 100ll blue aircraft fuel. That's what I ran in my race bikes. The R5 especially liked it. Not sure how the aircraft octane rating compares to how it is calculated for road vehicles. I know it is higher than the old premium. My plane has a STC to use premium pump fuel to replace 80 octane red aircraft fuel so I have to assume that 93 octane pump fuel is at least as high as 80 octane aviation fuel so the 100ll blue gas should exceed the best road fuels. The 650 was designed for leaded fuel and running a tank of leaded fuel might help to minimize valve seat wear.

As the story goes, Your mileage may vary . Pun intended
 
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