rattling loose bendix gear clip

[marp68]

My starter don't engage, but does grinding noise. Have removed the RH cover but not the clutch yet.

It seems though, when looking beneath the clutch assembly, that the bendix gear, spring and clip may have already been replaced once, since the clip now is placed according to later specification, that is, to the right of the original mounting place.

But when touching the clip with a screwdriver, it feels very loose, more or less just hanging around the gear. Should it be rattling loose or tight when mounted on the gear? Could this be the issue when it doesn't engage completely?

I also read on xs650wiki that sometimes these problems may be solved by just tightning the clip. And if it has been placed to the right of the original mounting place, one could insert a grip and squeeze it more tight without having to remove the clutch.

Don't want to remove the clutch if I don't have to or order new parts....

 

[Travis]

Yes the clip should be tight. That is probably your issue. I think your best bet is to remove the clutch and bendix, remove the clip, tighten it, then put it back on the bendix and reinstall everything. I don't think you're going to be able to tighten the clip with everything in place but I could be wrong about that.

 

[marp68]

Great! That's how I understood it as well, when reading all threads, articles, etc about this matter. Fixing this will be my weekend goal....

Maybe the clip is tight enough, but it maybe have slipped loose, hanging beside the two gears instead of on the bendix gear (4#)? Possible? Will see...

Anyway, I read that the clip strenght should at least be 5 lbs. Don't have tools to measure this. What could happen if I tight it to much? Or is it a must to tight the clip spring strenght to 5-8 lbs?

Here is the thread about fixing weak clips installed in the new position without removing the clutch: http://650wiki.org/index.php/12.08._Electric_start_problem_fix

I will however remove the clutch to further inspect all involved parts.

 

[marp68]

SUCCESS!!!

The clip was just hanging loose beside the gear. So I just mounted it on the gear and put all things back. First the spring, then the bendix gear and finally the outer gear. I also positioned the clip according the new instructions from Yamaha. Then remounting the clutch assembly, etc. My guess is that the PO mounted the clip incorrectly from the beginning, since it seems strange that it could have slipped off by itself..

And, when pressing the button, the bike fired up immediately.

BUT, the starter now grinds approx. 1-2 sec until, what it seems, the spring force the bendix gear to slide out completely, away from touching the big engine wheel.

Is this short grinding noise normal, or is the spring to weak, so that it doesn't push the gear out fast enough.

Tomorrow I will go for a test ride and see if clutch, etc still work as it should. Fingers crossed...

 

[XSLeo]

The wish bone shaped spring needs a minimum of 5lbs of force applied to the spring to turn it on the gear. It can be much more and be ok.
Most any spring scale will work.
You can use a water filled jug and tie a string from it to the spring. Out at the end of the small part.
As the old saying goes "A pint's a pound the world around." That means a pint of water weighs a pound. So 5 pints = 5 lbs.
You being from Sweden, your probably more familiar with metric measures. My measuring cup says a pint is just a bit less than a 500 ml. So 2.5 l is about 5 lbs.
If you fill a jug with 2.5 l of water and tie it to the spring and try to turn the gear it should lift the jug. I might try for about 6 or 7 lbs.
I use a simular jug with water to set the drag on my fishing reels. I fill a jug with water to weigh about 1/2 of the lb test of my line and tie my line to the jug. I set the drag tension so I can just slowly lift the jug up with the fishing rod, but slip if I give it a quick tug.
Ok back to your starter. Does it grind as it engages or when it releases?
If it is on engagement to wisah bone spring may be loose.
If it grinds on release the return spring may be weak.
As the starter spins the gears the wish bone spring keeps the gear from turning until it slides along the curved spline. Once it slides fully along the splines it engages the teeth on the crank. A weak spring allows the gear to spin as it moves and this is why it grinds.
When the engine starts and the gears release a return spring helps pull the gear away from and hold the gear away from the teeth on the crank. If the return spring is weak it won't pull it away from the teeth on the crank quickly enough and can grind.
On mine I squeezed the wish bone tighter and I stretched the return spring out longer. The return spring is just a coil spring. Longer equals stronger.
Leo

 

[marp68]

When the engine starts and the gears release a return spring helps pull the gear away from and hold the gear away from the teeth on the crank. If the return spring is weak it won't pull it away from the teeth on the crank quickly enough and can grind.
On mine I squeezed the wish bone tighter and I stretched the return spring out longer. The return spring is just a coil spring. Longer equals stronger.
Leo

Thanks for info. Before it didn't engage at all, just grinding. But when unmonting the whole thing, I noticed that the wish bone shaped clip just hanged loose beside the gear and not tight on it. So i just mounted it on the gear and put all things back.

Now the starter engage immediately and engine fires up, no problem there. BUT, it doesn't disengage fast enough, takes about 1-2 sec of grinding after releasing teh start button. So I also thought that it's the return spring that is to weak. Strange, since all parts looks new, probably chnged by PO, but incorrectly mounted. I will however take it out again and stretch it out, and see if it works better.

Any danger with having a return spring that is to strong? May it effect the engagement process in a negative way?

Anyone know where one can buy only the return spring? I've only seen it sold together with the wish bone shaped clip and the bendix gear, that is, the so called "starter gear kit", at mikesxs or xs650shop. I don't need the clip or the gear, which probably is the big cost if buying the whole kit.
/Martin

 

[XSLeo]

I doubt stretching the spring will make it to strong.
You might find oneat the dealer. Get the part number from a parts fiche somewhere first.
www.yamaha-motor.com
www.babbittsonline.com
www.boats.net
I have used all these places to reference part numbers. Some you can even search the part number and it will list all the bikes that used that parts number.
There are many places that sell parts. www.boats.net is often cheaper than others, they may have the spring.
Leo

 

[XSLeo]

I just checked, boats,net don't have it, but the part number is 90501-15409-00. List price is $8.62.
I checked a few other places. It doesn't seem to be out there.
Good luck in your search.
Leo

 

[marp68]

Yes, it's probably best to change it when I'm in there for the second time. I also intend to use modified clutch plate screws with allen head intead.

Thanks for the sites. I usually use babbittsonline myself.

Another curious thing with the spring is that it looked a bit conical. Wider towards the cranckcase wall and normal diameter at towards the gear. But when looking at images of new ones, it seems to have the same diameter at both ends, like a cylinder.

I wnet for ride today, it started right away, and everything else works as before. Great! So now I will only fix the return spring and the clutch plate screws.

 

[marp68]

I just checked, boats,net don't have it, but the part number is 90501-15409-00. List price is $8.62.
I checked a few other places. It doesn't seem to be out there.
Good luck in your search.
Leo

Okej, thanks!

/M

 

[XSLeo]

As the gears come together the spring collapses inside it self to let the gears come together. It is a bit conical. In the pics it just might not show it well.
Leo

 

[marp68]

It is possible to order only the return spring. I've now ordered it from a local outboard motor service dealer. Approx. 7 Euro. And no delivery cost...

 

[marp68]

First I got the message that the spring was backordered. Today I got the message that it isn't manufactured anymore.

So now I will use the old one. It didn't disangage enough so I will try to make the spring a little longer which will also tension it a bit more. Hopefully it will work. Otherwise I'll have to order the whole starter kit, which cost approx. 350 euro.

Or, anyone else knows if it's possible to order only the spring somewhere?

 

[Travis]

350 euro! You mean 35 euro I hope!

 

[marp68]

Right!

I think the old one, which seems rather new, will work. I made it a bit longer so hopefully it will now push it out completely.

But, when putting everything back together I noticed that one of the dampening springs on the driving gear was broken.... Have posted a new thread on thiss issue.

 

[marp68]

After stretching the return spring I put everyting back together, after also fixing some broken basket/driving gear springs issue.

The bike fired upp great, but now it doesn't disengage completely at all. It still grinds some. Only once, when firing up, it disengage completely. Then starting the engine again, it didn't.

I let it be for half an hour and then it disengaged completely. But then, when starting the engine immediately again, it didn't disenegaged completely.

So, if I let the engine be for some time, it disengage, but not when repeating the starting immediately again.

Maybe I should try stretching a little more?

Could the spring perhaps get stuck somehow? So that it not fully expand? Or can it be stretched to much? I also read something about starter solenoid issue. Could this be it? It worked before though. He only issue then was that it didn't disengaged quicly enough, took 1-2 sec to disengage completely.

Getting colder here. Perhaps some snow next week, so I really would like to slve this before next riding season.

M

 

[marp68]

I kickstarted it, but it still grinds some when I start the engine repeatedly, as if the starter gear is touching the bigger gear, not fully disengaging.

Have read some thread about the starter solenoid. Can this be it? Didn't have the trouble before, then the starter just didn't disengage quickly enough, so that's why I tried to stretch the spring some. But now this worse thing happens...

 

[colebrooker]

Marp, I am interested in how this issue was resolved. I have mine apart with similar problems.