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Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
I'll be honest with you Yl76, I put it back the way I found it. It was like that before I took it apart, so I ASSUMED that's how it should go back together again. If this IS the case, It will mean I will have to split the bottom apart to move it out a bit, as I don't think I have that ally plug either! Also I'm not sure which side that notch is!
FUUCK!
Anybody care to chime in before I rip this bike apart again? Or should I leave it the way I found it?????
FUUCK!
Anybody care to chime in before I rip this bike apart again? Or should I leave it the way I found it?????
Airwolfie,
I just came across your rebuild thread since I am ready to embark on mine. One thing I noticed is the position of the Shift Fork Guide Bar relative to the Stopper or Selector Plate.
On my '76, the Starwheel end of the Bar is notched. The end of the Selector Plate fits into this notch, which brings the Bar out a little bit. You can see in one of my Album images the impression on the Selector Plate where it has rested in the bar notch.
The end of your Selector Plate is positioned in front of the bar and the bar is recessed into the engine more than it should be (I'm thinking). The 1st & 2nd Attached Thumbnail images are yours, the 3rd Thumbnail is an image of my mechanism.
The 4th Attached Thumbnail shows where the Stopper (Selector) Plate has fit into the notch in the Shift Fork Guide Bar. 5th Thumbnail is the Starwheel end of the Shaft where the notch is.
Take a look at the images of my Gear Selector Mechanism Album (link below), specifically Image #'s 3, 9, 16, 19 and 61.
http://www.xs650.com/forum/album.php?u=5154
Perhaps there was a design change that I don't have in my '76.
Hope this helps!
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
Though I recognized the out of place part (as compared to mine), I honestly am not knowledgable enough to know what the possible consequences are of leaving it as is. You'll no doubt need a Guru to advise you on your course of action. I sure wish that I'd have come across your thread weeks ago...
On the positive side, I'm quite sure that you have the Shaft inserted correctly, i.e., your notched end is nearest the Starwheel where it should be.
As for the Plug, I think there's a good chance that you didn't have a plug to begin with nor do you need one. I'm speculating, though. I've come to the conclusion that my '76 didn't originally have one installed (after careful review of all of my disassembly photos) and I have no plans of adding one.
I think that you can simply pull the shaft out after you remove the stopper plate, the bolts and the double lock washer (lock screw plate). If you look at my pics (just taken), there is no way that the shaft notch can hang up on anything to prevent its removal. There will be the obvious friction to be overcome from moving the shaft a short distance through the 3 forks. My shaft can go way down in the cavity, but you can see from the "staining" on the end of the shaft how's much goes into the hole (and there is ~ 1/4" gap left between the end of the shaft and the case wall).
Since the shaft is carbon steel (ferrous), use a strong magnet (e.g., rare earth magnet, Neodymium Iron Boron, NeFeB) to help pull it out a little bit (just enough to slip Stopper Plate into notch). You may be able to pull it out with one of those telescoping magnet tools like Craftsman makes. Or, for a rare earth NeFeB magnet, go to eBay and search for one.
On the positive side, I'm quite sure that you have the Shaft inserted correctly, i.e., your notched end is nearest the Starwheel where it should be.
As for the Plug, I think there's a good chance that you didn't have a plug to begin with nor do you need one. I'm speculating, though. I've come to the conclusion that my '76 didn't originally have one installed (after careful review of all of my disassembly photos) and I have no plans of adding one.
I think that you can simply pull the shaft out after you remove the stopper plate, the bolts and the double lock washer (lock screw plate). If you look at my pics (just taken), there is no way that the shaft notch can hang up on anything to prevent its removal. There will be the obvious friction to be overcome from moving the shaft a short distance through the 3 forks. My shaft can go way down in the cavity, but you can see from the "staining" on the end of the shaft how's much goes into the hole (and there is ~ 1/4" gap left between the end of the shaft and the case wall).
Since the shaft is carbon steel (ferrous), use a strong magnet (e.g., rare earth magnet, Neodymium Iron Boron, NeFeB) to help pull it out a little bit (just enough to slip Stopper Plate into notch). You may be able to pull it out with one of those telescoping magnet tools like Craftsman makes. Or, for a rare earth NeFeB magnet, go to eBay and search for one.
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Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
Thanks YL, I guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend!!!
I'm guessing this SHOULD be like you described, otherwise they would not have bothered with the notch!! Oil feed is important, so I will do this.........
I'm guessing this SHOULD be like you described, otherwise they would not have bothered with the notch!! Oil feed is important, so I will do this.........
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
I've ordered NdFeB magnets from Apex (Emovendo) and they are lots of fun, albeit dangerous to fingers (and credit cards, harddrives, mechanical watches, pacemakers, defibrillators, etc.) if you get really large ones. eBay also sells NdFeB from China, but with a presumably high lead and/or depleted uranium waste content.
The link below for cylindrical magnets in the approximate width of the shaft diameter might be overkill for what you actually need (note Pull Force of 32.75 lbs.) to back out the selector fork shaft a centimeter or so, but its affordable.
I assume they ship to U.K.
http://www.apexmagnets.com/7-16-x-1-5-cylinders
Good Luck. Keep us updated!
The link below for cylindrical magnets in the approximate width of the shaft diameter might be overkill for what you actually need (note Pull Force of 32.75 lbs.) to back out the selector fork shaft a centimeter or so, but its affordable.
I assume they ship to U.K.
http://www.apexmagnets.com/7-16-x-1-5-cylinders
Good Luck. Keep us updated!
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Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
Thanks YL, I will have a look this weekend
Been pouring thru manuals, been so long since fooling with that area, and my 70-73 manuals make NO special mention of the fork shaft retainer/notch setup. However, certain pieces of HUGE .pdf manuals have pics showing proper setup, matching YL76's setup.
Having that shaft improperly installed (and plugged) could lead to numerous problems, like low oil pressure/flow and shifting difficulties. You should be able to quickly confirm after pulling the right cover and flashlighting the area...
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
Airwolfie
I am with TwoMany and if it was me I would have to put it right. Okay, some back-tracking, and taking apart some good work, but take that deep breath, and let's get on with it. I've looked at everything I can, and that notch is the big clue - and as TwoMany says, you just don't know if it will compromise the oil system.
Come on, Airwolfie. we are all supporting you. Get that beast torn apart and put back the way it should be, the way you want it to be!
On the plus side - we get more detailed, highly professional pics of the whole operation, and in the Spring you will be riding that baby with no fear of a sudden Kerrlung-boing-cruuuunch! from the star-wheel area.
Anlaf
I am with TwoMany and if it was me I would have to put it right. Okay, some back-tracking, and taking apart some good work, but take that deep breath, and let's get on with it. I've looked at everything I can, and that notch is the big clue - and as TwoMany says, you just don't know if it will compromise the oil system.
Come on, Airwolfie. we are all supporting you. Get that beast torn apart and put back the way it should be, the way you want it to be!
On the plus side - we get more detailed, highly professional pics of the whole operation, and in the Spring you will be riding that baby with no fear of a sudden Kerrlung-boing-cruuuunch! from the star-wheel area.
Anlaf
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
Hi Anlaf,
Are you suggesting that Airwolfie split his cases? If so, is this to reposition the shift fork guide bar/shaft outward a bit so notch can meet up with the Selector Plate or to install a Plug? Or Both ?
I just want to understand since I'm close to reinstalling these same parts, although I had no Plug to remove on mine.
Are separate plugs called for in years after '77 or so or were these pressed-in at some point along the way to where there's no plugs to remove?
Here's another relevant link I found:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27372
Are you suggesting that Airwolfie split his cases? If so, is this to reposition the shift fork guide bar/shaft outward a bit so notch can meet up with the Selector Plate or to install a Plug? Or Both ?
I just want to understand since I'm close to reinstalling these same parts, although I had no Plug to remove on mine.
Are separate plugs called for in years after '77 or so or were these pressed-in at some point along the way to where there's no plugs to remove?
Here's another relevant link I found:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27372
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Hey, ANLAF! How 'bout yours? Do any of your rebuild pics show that thing?
YL76, like peanut explained in that referenced thread, there's a gallery plug on the alternator side, going in flush from the outside, to plug the hole and allow oil to travel into the guide bar. The guide bar has oil feed holes that need to line-up with the shift forks, and deliver oil at the star-indexer region, too.
Engine cases, like carburetors, have many oil galleries line-bored in them, with intersections to connect and divert fluids. The ends of the drilled holes are plugged (often with steel balls) to seal off the outside world, leaving wormhole labrynths for the fluids to flow thru, and cause grief to those trying to clean-out those galleries.
Looks like the early models used a pressed-in plug, with plug part appearing (confusingly associated with the guide bar) in parts manuals. From the pics of later models, and reports of eliminated plug in later parts manuals, it appears that Yamaha elected to weld that area...
Engine cases, like carburetors, have many oil galleries line-bored in them, with intersections to connect and divert fluids. The ends of the drilled holes are plugged (often with steel balls) to seal off the outside world, leaving wormhole labrynths for the fluids to flow thru, and cause grief to those trying to clean-out those galleries.
Looks like the early models used a pressed-in plug, with plug part appearing (confusingly associated with the guide bar) in parts manuals. From the pics of later models, and reports of eliminated plug in later parts manuals, it appears that Yamaha elected to weld that area...
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
That clears it up for me. Mine is welded up as shown in one of the linked threads (see image courtesy of DeadChef), so I will stop looking for a lost plug and trying to find a replacement to order...
Thanks, TwoMany*** !!
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Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
Thanks for the support guys! I WILL tear into the side panel this weekend if I get time(dreading the fecking kickstart bit!). I remember seeing that same "weld" on my case YL76, so no need for me to split them apart! PHEW!
I'll keep you guys posted over the weekend on how it goes.............
I am Carbon
shade tree mechanic
Well Airwolfie I sure hope it aint no big deal for You Sir.
I'll do my good luck dance around the ole fire fer Ya.
I'll do my good luck dance around the ole fire fer Ya.
Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
Hehe thanks brother! I do appreciate that!
If I take off the side cover, will I have to replace the gasket???
I am Carbon
shade tree mechanic
not if it comes off in one piece.
If it was mine it probably would not come off in one piece.
I use sealer on every thing
If it was mine it probably would not come off in one piece.
I use sealer on every thing
Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
not if it comes off in one piece.
If it was mine it probably would not come off in one piece.
I use sealer on every thing
Ah ok, I'll try and get it off in one piece, I can't remember if I used sealer or not!!!
Airwolfie ....ya fecked now for sure
Did ya get this sorted yet ?
If your crankcase hasn't got the hole plugged already with weld you'll need to plug it with something ...preferably the correct aluminium plug but as its a metric hole you should have no difficulty finding something suitable to drift in there.
if its open then you'll be able to remove the selector drum retaining plate and drift the selector fork bar back out a fraction to the correct position for the locating tab to sit in the cut out before you plug the crankcase the other side.
good luck matey
Airwolfie
XS650 Guru
Airwolfie ....ya fecked now for sure
Did ya get this sorted yet ?
If your crankcase hasn't got the hole plugged already with weld you'll need to plug it with something ...preferably the correct aluminium plug but as its a metric hole you should have no difficulty finding something suitable to drift in there.
if its open then you'll be able to remove the selector drum retaining plate and drift the selector fork bar back out a fraction to the correct position for the locating tab to sit in the cut out before you plug the crankcase the other side.
good luck matey
Hehe I was trying to be nice to Carbon, but you gone and done it!
I'm sure my hole is plugged, I do have the other end closed up if that's what it means...
Really do NOT want to split the cases just to fnid out it was plugged!
If I pull it out a smidge, is there any way of knowing that it's plugged or not?
Hehe I was trying to be nice to Carbon, but you gone and done it!
If I pull it out a smidge, is there any way of knowing that it's plugged or not?
Hopefully its raining in Texas and he hasn't got his fire alight yet
(has it ever rained in TX ?)The exposed end which has the cutout for the locating plate we can see that it has the rubber bung fitted so thats ok.
The other end of the tube doesn't have a bung as far as I know . It sits inside a hole in the crankcase which goes right through the crankcase.
If the crankcase hole is blanked off with weld or has an aluminium plug closing it off then no oil will leak from the gear selector fork shaft at either end job done.
Your'e gonna have to remove the RH side cover whatever happens in order to see what you have.
The problem you have is two fold.
1. you need to get the fork selector shaft to protrude further to expose the cutout on the shaft for the locating plate to sit in.
2. you need to check the crankcase hole on the other side to see if it is plugged and plug it if its open.
If the crankcase hole is open,......... thats great ! because then you can put a thin rod in the hole on the RH side and drift (bang) the selector fork shaft assembly back through the LH side a 1/4" or so ,so that it protrudes far enough that you can see the cutout.
If its welded or plugged then you try to get a grip on the end of the selector fork shaft and pull it out a bit or you could drill a hole big through the weld or plug enough for a drift to fit and plug it afterwards.
If it has an aluminium plug then again you could try pry it out then drift the selector fork bar then replug the crankcase hole.
