jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
A copy of a weak part. How good would you expect it to be?
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Need help testing coil
- Thread starter Take Warning15
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- coil ignition
So true 5twins! My 1976 XS500C had those same stock ignition coils, and the bike ran just fine. The XS500C was new so a weak set of coils still got the job done.
You just don't want weak spark to be the weak link in the chain, that causes your bike to run like crap. If you want a one kick bike, go for a strong spark.
Yes, back in the 1960's and 1970's, a weak yellow spark was considered good enough. Also a "points" ignition was good enough as well.
Ignition coil manufacturers worked with what they had as far as insulation quality and desired price point. As the years went along, I think racing experience and the desire for better fuel milage, caused the manufacturers to build coils with better insulation and much higher voltage output.
A Pamco ignition and a good strong coil makes these bikes run much better than when they were new.
Ignition coil manufacturers worked with what they had as far as insulation quality and desired price point. As the years went along, I think racing experience and the desire for better fuel milage, caused the manufacturers to build coils with better insulation and much higher voltage output.
A Pamco ignition and a good strong coil makes these bikes run much better than when they were new.
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
Sounds like you guys are starting to talk me into a pamco.
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
I wanted to get it running at leat half decent before spending more money on it
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
By the way, I know the pamco provides a hotter spark, but is the system more reliable than points? If I want to take far trips, is it safer than the points?
^Points might be the most reliable of all because with them it's only mechanical stuff that can break, basically, which you can diagnose by eye. And fewer things that can break, compared to some ignitions.
I'm including ease of diagnosis, repair, cost, and probably other things in "reliability." Always have a spare ignition with you, whatever it is. That doubles the reliability
If I had a points bike I'd probably keep it points, even if I did have to keep a close eye on it. Not a swing at the pamco, but rather I'm mechanically inclined enough to handle points.
I'm including ease of diagnosis, repair, cost, and probably other things in "reliability." Always have a spare ignition with you, whatever it is. That doubles the reliability
If I had a points bike I'd probably keep it points, even if I did have to keep a close eye on it. Not a swing at the pamco, but rather I'm mechanically inclined enough to handle points.
The Pamco will help the bike run better do it's more precise timing. The new e-advancer improves the timing more across the entire rpm range.
Part of it is that you use a much stronger coil. The coil is what provides the hotter spark. The better spark makes the bike run better. You can upgrade the coil easily.
This is due partly to the fact that mechanical parts are not as precise as electronic parts. The weights of the stock advancer need play to function, excess play leads to sloppy timing. The springs of the stock advancer need to have a precise strength to properly control the movement of the weights. To light advance occurs early, too tight advance comes too late.
The early Pamco replaced just the points, this eliminates the need for constant attention to the points. But still retained the advancer issues.
The new e-advancer replaces the stock mechanical advancer with a computer controlled advance that better controls the timing at all speeds as well as the fact that it retards the timing to TDC for under 100 rpms to make it easier to start when kicking. Thus reduces the kick back on the kicker.
Now is the Pamco as reliable as points? So far I would say yes. Has it been around as long as points? No so the points have a long standing record that will be tough to beat.
Now looking at other vehicles that left points behind, their electronic ignitions seem to be very reliable. When was the last time you or anyone you know had there car quit that was ignition related that used an electronic ignition.
As I mentioned you can get a hotter dual output coil that you can add now. And if you decide you can go to a Pamco later. Not because you have to but want to.
Would I hesitate from making a trip across country with a points bike, No. I would just carry extra points and the tools to change them.
On a bike with a TCI or other after market ignitions I would feel comfortable doing the same ride. The only thing is that I wouldn't feel the need to carry an extra ignition. My Pamco has worked fine with no problems for years.
I have recently added the e-advancer to my 75 just to see if it helps. It does, the better timing has made the bike run a bit stronger and smoother.
I plan on putting it on my 81 with a switch so I can ride with the stock TCI then with a flip of the switch I can run the Pamco with E-advancer, A very back to back comparison.
Leo
Part of it is that you use a much stronger coil. The coil is what provides the hotter spark. The better spark makes the bike run better. You can upgrade the coil easily.
This is due partly to the fact that mechanical parts are not as precise as electronic parts. The weights of the stock advancer need play to function, excess play leads to sloppy timing. The springs of the stock advancer need to have a precise strength to properly control the movement of the weights. To light advance occurs early, too tight advance comes too late.
The early Pamco replaced just the points, this eliminates the need for constant attention to the points. But still retained the advancer issues.
The new e-advancer replaces the stock mechanical advancer with a computer controlled advance that better controls the timing at all speeds as well as the fact that it retards the timing to TDC for under 100 rpms to make it easier to start when kicking. Thus reduces the kick back on the kicker.
Now is the Pamco as reliable as points? So far I would say yes. Has it been around as long as points? No so the points have a long standing record that will be tough to beat.
Now looking at other vehicles that left points behind, their electronic ignitions seem to be very reliable. When was the last time you or anyone you know had there car quit that was ignition related that used an electronic ignition.
As I mentioned you can get a hotter dual output coil that you can add now. And if you decide you can go to a Pamco later. Not because you have to but want to.
Would I hesitate from making a trip across country with a points bike, No. I would just carry extra points and the tools to change them.
On a bike with a TCI or other after market ignitions I would feel comfortable doing the same ride. The only thing is that I wouldn't feel the need to carry an extra ignition. My Pamco has worked fine with no problems for years.
I have recently added the e-advancer to my 75 just to see if it helps. It does, the better timing has made the bike run a bit stronger and smoother.
I plan on putting it on my 81 with a switch so I can ride with the stock TCI then with a flip of the switch I can run the Pamco with E-advancer, A very back to back comparison.
Leo
The question was about reliability on a "far" trip. Probably what's most reliable is what you're most comfortable working on! I would reiterate take a spare of whatever. I've been through one TCI (repaired) and one TCI pickup coil and at least two Mike's ignition coils. People have used up Pamcos too. In fairness to the igntion coils, they both went after many days of 90-100F riding, with the horn turned upside down which probably inhibited air flow to it. When the coils went bad they measured fine with an ohmmeter but the plugs would foul enough to kill the motor within twenty miles. I would then limp it on one cylinder to someplace I could put my spare coil on.
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
What coil do you recommend with the pamco basic kit?
I started out with an Accel Power Pulse and then got the red Andrews because Pete told me the lower ohms rating would work better with the Pamco. Honestly, I couldn't tell any difference.
I paid about $15 for the Accel and about $25 for the Andrews off eBay. Both were brand new and are Harley coils. Harley coils are a dime a dozen on eBay. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a coil from Mikes, lol.
I paid about $15 for the Accel and about $25 for the Andrews off eBay. Both were brand new and are Harley coils. Harley coils are a dime a dozen on eBay. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a coil from Mikes, lol.
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
Because the don't have you clueing them into all the secrets of the vintage bike world. Let me ask you this, if I buy one of those coils, the higher resistance one I guess, would it work with my pouts until I buy te pamco? Then when I'm ready I can just swap the points and keep that coil?
That's similar to what I did the first year I had my bike. When I bought my bike, the 2 old stock coils were giving a weak spark. I bought the single Accel coil (3.3 ohm primary), that you see listed in my signature, and changed the points wiring so both sets of points fire the single coil. I put a 1.3 ohm ballast resistor in series with the coil primary to keep the total resistance greater than 4 ohms. The engine ran very well with this set-up.
After the first year, I took out the points and the ballast resistor, and installed a Pamco unit. The Accel coil and Pamco has run perfect for the last 5 seasons. In addition, this season I added the Pamco E-advancer, which is another great improvement.
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
any of them over 4 ohms will work for me without the resistor though, right? Someone said 4-5 earlier in the thread, so I figure it would be best to be as close to 4 as possible. Or is there no noticeable difference?
5Twins, how long ago was it that you bought that coil for $15? I'm looking now and cant find them for less than 70. I do see the Andrews 4.8ohm for about 50 though. Maybe I'll grab one of them. Then I'll struggle mounting it for a few weeks.
5Twins, how long ago was it that you bought that coil for $15? I'm looking now and cant find them for less than 70. I do see the Andrews 4.8ohm for about 50 though. Maybe I'll grab one of them. Then I'll struggle mounting it for a few weeks.
It was probably about 5 years ago that I got my coils. eBay is funny and kind of a matter of timing. I'm sure better deals than you're finding now will pop up. The Pamco will work with up to a 4.5 ohm coil so I would look for about a 4. That will work with your points now and the Pamco later. If a good deal came along on a 3 ohm coil though, I wouldn't pass it up. It's a simple matter to run it with a ballast resistor for the time being and, according to Pete, the Pamco will work better with it.
Then, there's always one of these .....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160680131024?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
The only thing you would want to make sure you got with it was the screw-on caps for attaching the plug wires. This place looks like a salvage yard and I'm sure they have those parts. Inquire and they may include them. There's also a little rubber "doughnut" that fits on the wire and gets compressed when you screw the cap on. This pinches and helps hold the wire in. You'll need those too.
Then, there's always one of these .....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/160680131024?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
The only thing you would want to make sure you got with it was the screw-on caps for attaching the plug wires. This place looks like a salvage yard and I'm sure they have those parts. Inquire and they may include them. There's also a little rubber "doughnut" that fits on the wire and gets compressed when you screw the cap on. This pinches and helps hold the wire in. You'll need those too.
any of them over 4 ohms will work for me without the resistor though, right? Someone said 4-5 earlier in the thread, so I figure it would be best to be as close to 4 as possible. Or is there no noticeable difference?
5Twins, how long ago was it that you bought that coil for $15? I'm looking now and cant find them for less than 70. I do see the Andrews 4.8ohm for about 50 though. Maybe I'll grab one of them. Then I'll struggle mounting it for a few weeks.
Yes, over 4 ohms will work fine without the added resistor.
If you think you might change over to a Pamco in the future, it could be a better option to buy a coil with the 2.8 to 3.5 ohm primary. Automotive suppliers (Napa etc.) sell NOS ballast resistors of 1.3 ohms, and the cost is low. You will end up with a stronger spark using the lower resistance coil.
Edit: Just found the part # I used for the ballast resistor. Its............ "Echlin ICR 23" ..........1.3 ohm sold by Napa.
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If you go with the Harley style coil, you'll have to make a little custom bracket to mount it. I also added bolt-on spade terminals and short jumper wires so it would plug right in to the original harness .....
My bracket also includes a tab for the flasher unit as it needed to be moved back a little for the coil to fit in .....
Everything tucks into the original coil area quite nicely .....
My bracket also includes a tab for the flasher unit as it needed to be moved back a little for the coil to fit in .....
Everything tucks into the original coil area quite nicely .....
Take Warning15
XS650 Addict
What's your opinion on mike's ultimate high output coil? I know you asked why anyone would get a coil from there but it would save a few bucks over the andrews coil. The resistance is not listed.
