PAMCO, PMA system help

Yes, the noobies get sucked into this buying unnecessary parts because they simply don't know any better. Sellers like Mikesxs.com , HHB, etc. thank you for giving them lots of your money.

They are often throwing out high quality Japanese oem parts, and replacing them with low quality Chinese parts.
 
retiredgentleman said:
Yes, the noobies get sucked into this buying unnecessary parts because they simply don't know any better. Sellers like Mikesxs.com , HHB, etc. thank you for giving them lots of your money.

They are often throwing out high quality Japanese oem parts, and replacing them with low quality Chinese parts.
Click to expand...
no accounting for personal taste with you is there?

sometimes people just want to upgrade things, or sideways-grade things, and wouldn't you know it, sometimes 40+ year old parts don't work like they did when they were new!

you'd probably hate my bike and all my upgrades, and that's ok - I didn't build it for you.
 
buzzword said:
no accounting for personal taste with you is there?

sometimes people just want to upgrade things, or sideways-grade things, and wouldn't you know it, sometimes 40+ year old parts don't work like they did when they were new!

you'd probably hate my bike and all my upgrades, and that's ok - I didn't build it for you.
Click to expand...

2 posts and both have nothing to do with help, just criticizing others opinions.

People have every right to do as they wish and build how they want. If that said person has no experience, (3 clicks of the mouse will determine if the poster has), then it is in his and our interest to help him/her have as much information so they can make an informed opinion.

9 out of 10 will have read on Chop Cult, or some such site, how going kick only and battery less with a Hughs PMA/Capacitor is the way to do things because..........Insert........The usual story on XS650 Electrics.

if said person wishes to dismiss said information and rely on heresy and misinformation then that is also their choice, but trying to get novices to actually learn about electrics and their XS650 before spending a whole lot of money will also help members because then they aren't going to be answering a whole lot of questions that shouldn't have to be answered.
 
I agree with Skull, i consider myself a novice as well and that is why i joined this forum, so i can get help and eventually be able to help others. On the other hand, i think replacing the ignition system and a PMA system will just give 30 more years to the bike. I personally would do it just for the fact that it will run without a battery and im just adding the basics in terms of electronics (headlight, rear turn signals and brake lights) i dont need anything else.
 
650Skull said:
2 posts and both have nothing to do with help, just criticizing others opinions.

People have every right to do as they wish and build how they want. If that said person has no experience, (3 clicks of the mouse will determine if the poster has), then it is in his and our interest to help him/her have as much information so they can make an informed opinion.

9 out of 10 will have read on Chop Cult, or some such site, how going kick only and battery less with a Hughs PMA/Capacitor is the way to do things because..........Insert........The usual story on XS650 Electrics.

if said person wishes to dismiss said information and rely on heresy and misinformation then that is also their choice, but trying to get novices to actually learn about electrics and their XS650 before spending a whole lot of money will also help members because then they aren't going to be answering a whole lot of questions that shouldn't have to be answered.
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fair enough - I am new here, so swallow this with a massive grain of salt, but it is just frustrating to me when there seems to be a contingent of folks on here whose mission seems to revolve around making sure everyone knows how reliable the stock charging system could be. I agree with them, but their methodology often comes off as heavy handed and intolerant.

Their argument seems to be - like it is on most forums - that people should do their own research (totally agree). However, this does not account for how people might react in a stressed state, when the thing upon which they just spent what might possibly be a big chunk of money to them isn't working, and they look for answers from people with more experience. Maybe they don't know what to even search for, or perhaps their first search results for "XS650 not charging" is someone praising Hugh's and similar PMA products. If they do, and then their first encounter with the fine folks on this board is someone telling them their purchase was unnecessary, ignorant, or otherwise - what's the chances of them turning into a helpful resource here themselves? I'd argue it's pretty low.

Again, my prolonged point is that those with an axe to grind about how reliable the old parts CAN be might not be considering every other factor that goes into a decision whether to upgrade or not. And furthermore, it just comes across as closed minded and inconsiderate. I'm sure retiredgentleman has helped plenty of people on here figure out their problems - no argument here - this is just something I've noticed in my short tenure that irks me. Again, grain of salt.

Finally, if anyone wants my stock charging system, I'll send it to you for the cost of a label and you can write a post on here about how great it is.
 
I agree that everyone has the right to spend money however they want.
To me doing a bit of testing before you open your wallet can save a bunch of money. After all a $17 set of brushes is a lot less than a few hundred for a PMA.
The same goes for carbs, they could be your ignition issues.
Test first, then spend.
Leo
 
XSLeo said:
I agree that everyone has the right to spend money however they want.
To me doing a bit of testing before you open your wallet can save a bunch of money. After all a $17 set of brushes is a lot less than a few hundred for a PMA.
The same goes for carbs, they could be your ignition issues.
Test first, then spend.
Leo
Click to expand...

I can't agree more. I've steered people into OEM parts more than not when their budget dictates, or the build doesn't require the options that a PMA provides. Usually, if I have OEM Charging System components here, I'll give them away for the cost of shipping just to keep folks on the road. Same with TCI Components.

I have a whole stockpile of good OEM parts just for that reason, although it is dwindling lately.

At the end of the day, seeing the bikes out and about on the road is what its all about :thumbsup:

Hugh
 
Hi buzz,
some times soft words and gentle hints don't work for some people.
If a rider insists on doing something that 60 years riding experience tells me is suicidal or stupid I feel it's my duty to say so, even if it takes harsh language to get the message across.
And while I have no present need for a stock charging system someone who does receive your system will most likely post a thankyou note for saving him from spending a C-note for used parts or for saving him twice that in him not needing to go the PMA/Pamco route.
 
Another thing that keeps getting said over and over again is these parts are 30-40 years old............. so worn out................

No............The bike is 30-40 years old and most have done little mileage. The parts haven't been used for 30-40 years because most bikes have been in the shed for the last 20-30.

How many bikes are parked up because there was an electrical or charging problem and the old, "Ill get to it next week" becomes the back of the garage for a dozen shifts until it is sold off.

So the chances are a short, brushes to short, loose wire causing charging issues, poorly maintained battery are all then blamed on the charging system, that contributes to the bike in the back of the shed syndrome.

When the bike is sold 10, 20, years later the charging system is blamed so the only way to fix that is to buy a brand new poor quality old style PMA charging system without learning to diagnose or just plane learning/realising the charging system has done, in reality, little more than 10-20 thousand miles.

Before all the PMA hype and the availability of replacement parts for the XS650, (i guess you could say MikesXS), the second hand Banshee pma swap was was a cheap reliable quality alternative to finding or repairing a Rotor or Stator. Now it is not cheep and has reliability issues due to quality control.
 
hooser said:
Look into a the powerdynamo system.. www.powerdynamo.biz.. timed at the crank,. nothing at the cam. set it and forget it.
email me at www.hoosracing.com for more information , Best ignition out there.. Gary
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I quess this goes back to sellers pushing their products before advising a diagnosis of any problems.

Not a straight forward site to navigate and for $623.00 Australian + freight ???

I think that is just for the ignition although it does say Rotor in there somewhere ???
 
Seller yes but long before I sold them I used them...raced with them ..why diagnosis a problem when the is a better system. So I guess I did fix your problem, but you do not want to listen.

Site is not that hard to go through like everything just take a little time to understand

It is a complete system..stator. rotor, regulator, electronic advance unit.


Here is the link that will get you to where you need to go.

http://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/systems/7376/7376main.htm
 
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hooser said:
Seller yes but long before I sold them I used them...raced with them ..why diagnosis a problem when the is a better system. So I guess I did fix your problem, but you do not want to listen.

Site is not that hard to go through like everything just take a little time to understand

It is a complete system..stator. rotor, regulator, electronic advance unit.


Here is the link that will get you to where you need to go.

http://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/systems/7376/7376main.htm
Click to expand...

A quote from the powerdynamo site:

"The stock alternator produces 232Watts at 5,000 RPM. The stock rotor / regulator uses 42 of those watts and the ignition system uses 52 Watts, for a net output of 138 Watts. So, the PowerDynamo system actually has more usable power at 180 Watts."

Wow, talk about advertising hyperbole B.S.............this is a classic example.The stock alternator can produce 14.3 amps/200 watts at 4000 RPM (a typical rpm driving down the road). The stock rotor/regulator does not use 42 watts, it uses 9.8 watts. The stock type ignition system (points) does not use 52 watts; actually it uses about 18.2 watts. My Pamco ignition only uses 9.8 watts.

Here is what my bike uses at 4000 rpm. At idle 1200 rpm,the voltage regulator draws about 2 amps/24 watts.

Voltage reg./rotor 1.4 amps 9.8 watts

Ignition (Pamco) 0.7 amps 9.8 watts

LED tail/licence lights 0.073 amps 1.0 watt

Headlight/meter lights 4.6 amps 64.4 watts

Battery charging 3.0 amps 42 watts
(actually less than 2 amps
most of the time)

Total 9.77 amps 127watts (141 watts at 1200 rpm)

Spare unused capacity 14.3-9.77= 4.53 amps
200-127 = 73 watts (or 59 watts spare at 1200 rpm)

Its obvious PowerDynamo system does not have more usable power, since my stock alternator can easily put out my required 127 watts, and still have 73 watts of spare power if needed. Also my stock alternator is only producing 127 watts of heat, as compared to the PowerDynamo which always runs at full capacity producing 180 or more watts, and must somehow dissipate that extra heat.

An alternator producing 127 watts will run cooler as compared to one producing 180+ watts.

The PowerDynamo system at $575 USD/$728 CAD plus shipping looks to be very expensive.

Its also not a good design to have both the alternator and the ignition in the one package. If only part of it fails, it will be expensive to replace the whole unit. Its much cheaper to replace a separate alternator or a separate ignition if only one fails.

So, good luck to the European company. Not a good start, by telling blatant lies. You can't fool all the people all the time.:bike:
 
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hooser said:
Seller yes but long before I sold them I used them...raced with them ..why diagnosis a problem when the is a better system. So I guess I did fix your problem, but you do not want to listen.
Click to expand...

Who isn't listening...........

I have been talking about helping newbies understand and learning. People are often on a budget ......again......... by learning to diagnose electrical and mechanical they have a better understanding of their own requirements and the direction they may wish go in.

Not just buy, a supposed upgrade, because of hype from sellers, or the buyers who just do not know before knowing what they have or need

Your product may be the best on the market, that does not make it the best for every situation.

Making statements that are false and misleading does you and your reputation no good.

I also read in there it cuts out the Safety relay for the starter. Not required on a racing bike but very handy for a weekend warrior or user of any other kind who is stopping and starting on a regular basis
 
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650 skull, What statement did I say that was false. I used them on my race bike and have on my street bikes. You are correct though no product is for everyone. I would not run anything else but then I don't need help working on my ignition either. On the last note how much timing change goes on with a stock or cam timed ignition. Even Yamaha went a different way in the later models. Timing at the crank is just a better way.

Now for Retiredgentalman.. did you do all the measurements yourself? That's a lot of work good job. No BS wow! But in most cases just because your numbers are different does not mean there's aren't . I will send your info. to them and see what they have to say. I am not sticking up for them or believing you. You gave a lot of info to process. I have an open mind at this time. But for me I run a head light and tail light so don't need much power. An in the 8 years I run one never had one quite or the ones I sold never had one come back. When get a reply back from there tech support I will offer the finding if you are interested. Thank. Gary
 
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hooser said:
650 skull, What statement did I say that was false. I used them on my race bike and have on my street bikes. You are correct though no product is for everyone. I would not run anything else but then I don't need help working on my ignition either. On the last note how much timing change goes on with a stock or cam timed ignition. Even Yamaha went a different way in the later models. Timing at the crank is just a better way.

Now for Retiredgentalman.. did you do all the measurements yourself? That's a lot of work good job. No BS wow! But in most cases just because your numbers are different does not mean there's aren't . I will send your info. to them and see what they have to say. I am not sticking up for them or believing you. You gave a lot of info to process. I have an open mind at this time. But for me I run a head light and tail light so don't need much power. An in the 8 years I run one never had one quite or the ones I sold never had one come back. When get a reply back from there tech support I will offer the finding if you are interested. Thank. Gary
Click to expand...

Yes, all the measurements are done by myself. No, its not a lot of work.

Its become common practice for the PMA sellers to not just promote their own product, but to trash talk the stock alternator's ability to operate a bike's electrical system. They seem to like to just pick fictitious numbers out of the air, in order to make the stock alternator appear to have poor performance.

The PMA sellers also like to point out that stock alternators have the dreaded carbon brushes, which they infer require a lot of maintenance. Not long ago, I replaced my brushes after 7 years, and they were not yet worn out. It took about 10 minutes.

Someone has to stand up for the well designed and high quality Japanese (Hitachi) alternator. Whenever I see PMA manufacturers or sellers telling lies, I have no hesitation bringing it to everyone's attention.

Yes, I look forward to hearing a reply from their tech support.
 
Have you tried a powerdynamo ignition, have you tested it? Or are you one the just know?
I like the system when I raced ,like the PVL Iused later you do not need a battery, Even on my street bike I do not use one. Not sure why everything is underlining now. Must have hit a work keystroke.
Now I will say one more time I Do NOT LIE, I asumme you mean me as a seller. I use them and never had any trouble with them and for you to say I am is just BS. and I do not take it kindly.
Every product I sell I have used or still do. Just do not call me a lier. If you have a different opion on something or have had different experience with a product it doesn't make ether one of us a lier.
 
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Here is there reply,,unedited..I will add I agree with Edgar if you want a good reliable German build ignition by one. Retired I can send one your way if you want to test, I sent one to Hugh to test on the 277,( I do not have one) I tested them already on my bikes for over 8 years which is good enough for me.. Gary

we are used to strange citations in diverse fora. you always find people who need to tell others that they are more clever than everybody else and that whoever offers something offers shit.

as you know, i can not reply to this forum as i am not a member there, also i do not have the direct mail address of this guy.

as the the matter itself:
we did not invent those data, but got them from XS specialists. you might be able to check on those data perhaps.
i accept that we ourselves did not verify them. what we will do, is we will take those data off our information. this will in no way harm our sales which are excellent for this product.

what is true anyway is that the system works reliably and replaces the worn stock parts.
our price is not 575 usd, but about 100 usd less. but even this is considered with what you get a good bargain.

we know that we are not alone in the market and we feel that this is good so. choice is always good.

regards, edgar
 

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