Pamco runs on starter only

HUGE PROGRESS!

I found a loose join on the coil wire however, this did not solve my problem but did prompt me to check the jumper battery again and presto! Runs like a dream even after releasing the start button.

This was the catalyst for a few more tests that narrowed it down to a battery/voltage problem. Before this issue occurred, I bought a brand new dry cell battery that is producing over 14V when fully charged. This is plenty of guts to turn the starter but for some reason will not produce a spark after releasing the button. However, the spare jumper battery would produce a healthy spark without a problem. We tested this into the ground, swapping batteries without anything else connected about a dozen times.

My question is, does the pamco or coil fail to produce a spark if the voltage is too high??
I believe the starter is drawing enough current to drop the voltage and temporarily run the pamco/coil. As soon as the button is released and the starter stops, the voltage immediately increases and somewhere something is failing.

I would be forever great-full if someone can put me out of my misery.:banghead:
 
The newest Pamco has an over voltage protection circuit in it. I think it prevents any voltage over 16 volts to pass through to the rest of the unit. I don't think it cuts the power off, just stops the high voltage from passing.
If your system works fine with one battery and won't with the other, just use the one that works. Get the bike running, test the charging system for proper function. If every thing checks out try the other battery.
Leo
 
XSLeo said:
The newest Pamco has an over voltage protection circuit in it. I think it prevents any voltage over 16 volts to pass through to the rest of the unit. I don't think it cuts the power off, just stops the high voltage from passing.
If your system works fine with one battery and won't with the other, just use the one that works. Get the bike running, test the charging system for proper function. If every thing checks out try the other battery.
Leo
Click to expand...
Xsleo, thank you very much for this confirmation. I am getting no spark at around 14 volts. So this is very consistent with a high voltage protection cutcuit. I have my old battery on charge to see if it can crank the starter tonight. I will take the battery back as its got a 1 year warranty on it. Have you ever heard of 12v batteries producing up to 15v?
 
Levett,

The PAMCO with the E-Advancer will work up to 20 Volts. The "cutout" does not stop the PAMCO from working it just limits the internal Voltage . The nominal battery voltage is 14.5 Volts with the engine running above 3,000 RPM and the charging system working ok. The spec for the charging system is 14.5 Volts +/- .3 Volts but it is not uncommon for the battery voltage to get up to 15 Volts. If you are somehow making 18+ Volts from your charging system, then you will be popping all the lights, starting with the headlight.

I would try each of the batteries that you have in circuit with the PAMCO now running from the bikes electrical system. If one battery works and the other doesn't, then that is the problem.

The E-Advancer is a new product and I have not heard of it failing due to too high a voltage, but anything is possible, but it normally would not fail at 14 to 20 Volts.
 
Sorry Pete, failing was the wrong word. I like the fact that the pamco has a high voltage protection circuit but could the threshold on mine be lower than normal? The new dry cell is about 14.5v resting voltage. This is when I take it out and it's not connected to anything. We came to the conclusion that the battery is causing the problem because we sat both batteries on the floor and swapped the coil/pamco lead and frame ground lead from one to the other. The fully charged dry cell produces no spark. The half charged wet cell produced a spark. There is nothing else connected.

Could I be missing something? Both batteries are definitely 12v but the wet cell is only 1.5AH whereas the dry cell is 13.0AH. Could this have anything to do with it?

Really appreciating all the help.
 
Levett47 said:
Sorry Pete, failing was the wrong word. I like the fact that the pamco has a high voltage protection circuit but could the threshold on mine be lower than normal? The new dry cell is about 14.5v resting voltage. This is when I take it out and it's not connected to anything. We came to the conclusion that the battery is causing the problem because we sat both batteries on the floor and swapped the coil/pamco lead and frame ground lead from one to the other. The fully charged dry cell produces no spark. The half charged wet cell produced a spark. There is nothing else connected.

Could I be missing something? Both batteries are definitely 12v but the wet cell is only 1.5AH whereas the dry cell is 13.0AH. Could this have anything to do with it?

Really appreciating all the help.
Click to expand...

A fully charged lead/acid battery (wet cell) should have about 12.5 volts. A dry cell battery that has 14.5 volts, resting voltage, should not be used on these bikes. If it measures 14.5 volts, then by definition, its not a 12 volt battery, and is not suitable.

The amp/hour rating has nothing to do with what you found.
 
retiredgentleman said:
A fully charged lead/acid battery (wet cell) should have about 12.5 volts. A dry cell battery that has 14.5 volts, resting voltage, should not be used on these bikes. If it measures 14.5 volts, then by definition, its not a 12 volt battery, and is not suitable.

The amp/hour rating has nothing to do with what you found.
Click to expand...
Thanks retiredgentleman,
I'll take the battery back and see if they replace it. I've never heard of a battery that is over the rated voltage but I guess this might happen.
 
On a lead acid battery the charging voltage has to be about 1.5 volts higher than battery rating. It needs this extra voltage to over come internal resistance. So to get a battery charged to 12.5 volts you need 14 volts of charge.
I don't now much about dry cell batteries. Perhaps they have different specs.
I have a Ballistic Performance Components 8 cell battery in my 75. It is a dry battery. It works very well. The higher cranking amps spins the 750 kitted engine much better than the stock battery.
What brand is your battery?
Leo
 
XSLEO,
Thanks much for the quick reply and your thoroughness. It's great having such great backup for problems to get answered like this.
I think you covered it for me.
Charlie
 
Hi again,

Sorry about the long gap. I've been on holidays for a few weeks but back on the bike now.

I took the battery back to get tested and they said it was in great working order. Pretty much still in new condition.

I have charged the spare for a few hours to get it back to full charge and found that it couldn't produce a spark either.

I seem to get a spark through at about 11v which is obviously a problem. Is there a chance that the coil is the issue? Is there something I can do to rectify this or should I just quit trying to fix it and get a new e-advancer box?
 
Hi again, again,

I did some more accurate testing to see exactly where the voltage threshold is by incrementally drawing charge out of the battery by running the headlight for a few minutes at a time and then connecting it to the coil/pamco only.

The threshold is right on 12.3v

I am absolutely convinced that I need a new blue e-advancer box. Please let me know what I can do here.

Thanks for everybody's help too.
 
If you have the e-advancer what are the voltages on the red wire between the e-advancer and the sensor plate?
The e-advancer has a 5 volt voltage regulator on the circuit board that limits the voltage to the sensor plate to 5 volts. Some of the early regulators had problems. Check the voltage as described.
Leo
 
Levette and XSLeo,

I'm not convinced that it is a bad PAMCO, but you never know. Levette...please PM your address and I will send you a new system.
 
Hi Leo,

The voltage readings at the sensor plate (red wire) seem to be inconsistent, going from 2v to 6v as the battery standing voltage reduced. I started with a fully charged battery, disconnecting it to reduce the charge in intervals (.5v at a time) and then re checking to see if there was a point at which something changed. The figures are fluctuating though rather than producing a predictable number. Sometimes with 13v battery charge, the sensor plate would show 6v but most of the time it would be 2v or lower.

A 6v reading however, is consistent when the battery is around 12v.

I can send the unit to you or Pete.. Not sure if you work together but I would be more than happy to send it.
 
As I understand it, the E-advancer sends the 5 volts to the sensor plate. At the Hall effect transistor as a magnet passes it, it either turns on or off. When on the transistor sends this 5 volts back to the e-advancer as a signal for engine position. The e-advancer then knows when to turn the coil on or off to create the spark.
As you see from your testing the voltage on the red wire drops as the battery voltage drops. This lower voltage may not return a strong enough signal for the e-advancer to sense. Pete?
I do help Pete as much as I can on the forum. But as far as shipping it to some one for inspection and repair, Pete's the man.
He knows much more about it than I do, but I'm learning.
Leo
 
Hi guys, I'm not sure if my private messages are getting through to pete. Let me know if there is something not working properly or that I should just be patient.
 

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