Running great / then blew all lights / and now won't do anything

[gst95dsm]

Sorry in advance for this long rant.

First off... 79 points bike, stock original reg / rec / alternator with simplified TCbros wiring harness.

I've been putting in a lot of time with this bike lately and I'm just baffled as to what happening today on a shake down. I just installed new points, condensers, coils and alternator brushes. The bike fired first kick, idled, revved and sounded great. Choked up nice, settled down to a nice even idle after warming up a bit. I hooked up the meter to the battery and gave it a little rev and saw the voltage steadily climbing to around 13.8v. I decided to take it for a little test spin.

The test spin was going well, REALLY well in fact. The bike was revving out nice, accepting throttle beautifully, shifting nice. Not stalling when coming to a stop.... just really running how I hoped it would after the new parts. I decided to stop by a friends house, He was outside and I rolled up to his driveway. Came to a stop and the bike stalled, oh well I'm thinking, it's probably fully warmed up now and maybe i need to bump the idle a bit so I think nothing of it.

Fast forward to me getting ready to leave, I turn the key on and no lights, hmmm... fuse blew maybe?? Nope... checked all fuses are they were good. Grab the multimeter and I have no power to the ignition when I turn the key on. Bad ignition switch maybe? Nope... ran direct power to ignition wire and still nothing (not even a voltage reading) run direct power to lights, nothing. All bulbs appear to be blown. Needless to say we loaded it up and brought it back to my house.

I have now completely disassembled my wiring harness and still can't figure out what the hell happened. When I plug everything in and test for voltage at the ignition it reads NONE, UNLESS I unplug the regulator. (I hope that clicks for one of you experts).... Also when I do have power to the ignition and I test the hot wire running to the coils (at the coil) it has voltage sometimes and sometimes it doesn't, as I turn it over the voltage comes and goes as the points open and close. (I hope that's also a clue for you experts). One thing I no is that I no longer have ANY spark even hooking directly to battery. Battery reads 12.6v. Points gap .12.

The only thing "new" today were the alternator brushes, prior to today they were not hooked up. The bike still ran ok just obviously not charging the battery. Rotor measures 5 ohms.

My theory.... crap original regulator wasn't doing it's job and I had extremely high voltage running through the system. This was not evident prior since the alternator wasn't giving it anything to do and during my pre-test I just didn't rev it high enough to reveal the issue. I can deal with that, what I don't understand is why I can't get it to fire after unhooking the regulator and running the ignition straight to battery. What damage could high voltage do to everything??? NOTHING seems like it got hot, no wires burnt, no connectors burnt, no weird smells, nothing. And it's so bizarre how it was running so good just before this.

I even swapped my original coil back in thinking I fried the new ones, but I had the same results.

Again I'm sorry for the long post.... I just drove myself insane tonight trying to diagnose. If anyone wants to chime in I'm all ears.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

It's possible for a battery to show 12.6 volts unloaded, then drop to zero with loading. Loss of capacity.
Cracked plates from vibration can do that.
While checking battery voltage, switch ignition on, see if it drops much...

 

[gst95dsm]

It's possible for a battery to show 12.6 volts unloaded, then drop to zero with loading. Loss of capacity.
Cracked plates from vibration can do that.
While checking battery voltage, switch ignition on, see if it drops much...

Man o man..... I just hooked up another 12v source to my lights I assumed blown and what do you know. Lit right up. First off, thanks! Second off... I've never heard of or seen a brand new gel battery have such an instant failure. I also just assumed stupidly that since it read 12v+ there was no way it could be a part of the issue. So I guess I can also assume it was running good prior because it was running off the alternator and the failure happened during the shake down run. We will see what happens tomorrow when I try to get the wiring back in order that I destroyed today.... Bummer since I had it pretty clean.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Welcome to the forum, gst95gsm.
And welcome to the dark and mysterious world of electronics.

Let us know how it goes...

 

[gggGary]

I swear I see many more failures with those great no problems gel cells than the old school standard lead acid plate batteries.............. I will guess I have bought and installed 25 lead acid motorcycle batteries in the last few years without a single problem or failure. All on stock charging systems, after a thorough checkout and replacement of dead parts as needed. I budget 4-5 years of life out of lead acids if they are occasionally charged over the winter months. Which reminds me it's time to make the rounds of the shed with the battery charger. My cheap Farm and Fleet garden tractor battery pretty much gave out last fall, about 6 years in on a machine that is much harder on batteries than an XS650.

 

[NONclow]

I swear I see many more failures with those great no problems gel cells than the old school standard lead acid plate batteries.........

They work great ("hassle" free ), till they don't. Kinda like electronic ignitions, you can't file and gap the transistors!

I think I've babied my battery to 7 seasons. Stock '71 alternator (on an 80 engine) with solid state reg/rec, FWIW.

 

[warrenlevihursh]

I had a similar battery problem recently on my XS. The lights were extremely dim and it had no headlight. The battery was new and read 13.1 volts until I turn the ignition key. It would automatically drop to around 3 volts! Batteries can be a pain!

 

[gst95dsm]

Thanks for the help guys, I'm not out of the woods yet but things are much more hopeful than yesterday! I fixed up all the wiring that I destroyed yesterday, cleaned some terminals, and bottoned everything back up. Let the new battery charge and what do you know.... it came to life. I took a short ride and realized I had no charging going on. Turns out I had the plugs for the rectifier and alternator reversed. Fixed that and tested for voltage at the hot brush... bingo. Slap test... bingo.... so I'm letting the battery charge again before I go any further. The diagnostic time spent with the key on probably wasn't the best for a brand new battery but anyhow...... we're doing better!

And just for kicks.... here is the subject! As I bought her 4 months ago and now.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Once a battery has gone flat, there's little chance it'll recover to normal. As such, there's a strong risk that the charging system will be running overtime, and the first casualty would be the rotor, from overheat...

 

[warrenlevihursh]

Nice looking bike! I like the raw look with the clear. Is that powdered clear or spray? This looks a lot like my david bird hardtail I am working on. I am also have problems with it not charging, just haven't had time to really look at it too much yet.

 

[gst95dsm]

Once a battery has gone flat, there's little chance it'll recover to normal. As such, there's a strong risk that the charging system will be running overtime, and the first casualty would be the rotor, from overheat...

Thanks for the info man, I certainly appreciate you taking the time to reply! I'm happy to say that during testing today I DO INDEED have a bike with a functional charging system. Not one that I fully trust until I replace the OE regulator and rectifier but as of right now they both appear to working as they were intended to. I am going to wire up a voltage gauge so I can keep an eye on it during my next couple shake down runs. I was very happy to see that voltage rise today when revving the bike. I never saw over 14V or below 12v. It was raining so no test ride today but I'll keep ya'll posted.

Nice looking bike! I like the raw look with the clear. Is that powdered clear or spray? This looks a lot like my david bird hardtail I am working on. I am also have problems with it not charging, just haven't had time to really look at it too much yet.

It's all rattle can. I sprayed it red primer, then bright red, then black, then silver and worked it to a "patina / work in progress" look from there. It looks killer in person IMO. I then cleared everything with many coats and wet sanded it. Then the D/A polisher came out to bring back the shine. I have to say I was very impressed for it just being rattle can. It's smooth as glass and very deep.

Also your bike looks killer!

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...It was raining...

Oh, man, we're finally coming out of a 4year drought, and have been watching CA, hoping yours is broken too.

... I then cleared everything with many coats and wet sanded it. Then the D/A polisher came out to bring back the shine. I have to say I was very impressed for it just being rattle can. It's smooth as glass and very deep...

Which clear did you use?

 

[warrenlevihursh]

That's crazy, looks like raw metal. I'm curious what clear you used as well. I am in the process of painting my Café tank and bought SprayMax 2K clear in a can. It has an activator on the can that mixed 2 parts, one is a hardener so the paint can resist fuel spills.

Glad you got the bike charging!

 

[gst95dsm]

Oh, man, we're finally coming out of a 4year drought, and have been watching CA, hoping yours is broken too.



Which clear did you use?

That's crazy, looks like raw metal. I'm curious what clear you used as well. I am in the process of painting my Café tank and bought SprayMax 2K clear in a can. It has an activator on the can that mixed 2 parts, one is a hardener so the paint can resist fuel spills.

Glad you got the bike charging!

I used Duplicolor automotive clear

It DOES not appear to like fuel spills! So unless you're going for a patina'd look that doesn't necessarily have to be perfect all the time it's probably not the right choice. I noticed when I spilled fuel on it, it hazed, it was however still quite fresh and may not have hardened completely. The hazing buffed right off by hand with some compound. I have also now got a nice coat of wax on the paint so maybe there will be resistance. I will be careful fueling up though to avoid the issue as much as possible.

 

[gst95dsm]

For fun here is a shot of the tank before clearing it....

 

[Iowa Mark]

Funny story about batteries. At work the tool crib supplies batteries for all of our meters, flash lights and anything else needing power without a cord. Just turn in the old ones and get new ones. Then we started getting batches of dead batteries. After a few days, we find out the new person in the crib has been checking the turned in batteries and finding lots of them showing voltage! Returned them to the system! Hit the button on the flashlight and 9 volts goes to 2 just like that! If you ask if she checked the batteries you ask for now, she uses almost all the bad words in her reply!

 

[gst95dsm]

Funny story about batteries. At work the tool crib supplies batteries for all of our meters, flash lights and anything else needing power without a cord. Just turn in the old ones and get new ones. Then we started getting batches of dead batteries. After a few days, we find out the new person in the crib has been checking the turned in batteries and finding lots of them showing voltage! Returned them to the system! Hit the button on the flashlight and 9 volts goes to 2 just like that! If you ask if she checked the batteries you ask for now, she uses almost all the bad words in her reply!

Haha, she meant well! I guess I'm no better assuming mine was ok. Always learning!

 

[gst95dsm]

Funny story today. It was dry outside for the first time since I replaced the battery so I took the bike around the block a few times. All seemed pretty good. Had some top end bogging going on. I have a couple things to blame so until I rule all those out I'm ok with it. My OE plug wires are crap and I can't believe they even work at all. New ones are on the way, and I need to double check the points. Overall it was running consistent and relatively smooth. No stalling or backfiring, all lights working, overall not bad.

THEN...... as I was ripping down a back road behind my house at probably 60mph, it died completely 100%. Nothing, no lights no ignition, just like it did the other day when the battery went south. My mind instantly thought, well that's settled, there is something obviously wrong with the charging system and destroying batteries somehow. I decided to push it home, only about a 1/4 mile (my cardio for the day), then opened up my electronics box..... laughter ensued.

I run a small fuse box with 4 fuses in it, Not only did the cover come off but ALL 4 fuses shook out of their holders and were laying in the electronics box. Lol.... I was happy to see them there since I knew nothing was really wrong, just gotta secure those better. I put them back in and all was well. Kinda.

It seems that my 36yr old mechanical regulator is a little inconsistent. One garage test and I've got some nice voltage in the high 13's then another I get very little, not even 13v. Well that sucker had to go. I went and picked up a Napa VR1010SB tonight and wired it in. I didn't know really what to expect. I've never had a vintage bike before and never had to test or diagnose a bikes charging system. Anyhow I hooked that sucker up and started the bike with the multimeter attached to the battery and i was quite amazed how well it "regulated". That sucker shows a constant, steady 14.3v when revved up a little and then staying that exact voltage throughout the RPM range and a solid 12.9v at idle. Needless to say I was very satisfied to see this and it was $27 well spent!

I'll probably take a little test ride tomorrow and I have a feeling that the top end bog / stutter was simply voltage related even with the crappy plug wires, and poorly adjusted points.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...ALL 4 fuses shook out of their holders and were laying in the electronics box...

Haha, that's a good one. These bikes also make great paint shakers.

Glad to hear about the voltage regulation. Did you mount a voltmeter?

 

[gst95dsm]

Haha, that's a good one. These bikes also make great paint shakers.

Glad to hear about the voltage regulation. Did you mount a voltmeter?

No, but I'm going to. Seems like good info to have at the ready with these machines.