Some things to consider, re; rear brakes

How do you use your brakes

  • rear only I don't HAVE a front

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  • mostly rear the front can throw down the bike!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29
RG You'll like this. Bought a brand spankin' new 01 Chev 1 ton dually, first truck I owned with rear disk brakes, a selling feature, at that time I was hauling some heavy trailers. I'd put a lot of miles with drum rear brake pick ups. At 20K miles!! the rear disk brakes were completely shot, had to put on new pads and rotors the Wisconsin salt had eaten away the Chinese cast iron rotors, huge chunks were breaking away. That destroyed the pads. Another note for RG I believe you are expressing a misconception that may be dangerous to your health. Yes as the rate of speed reduction you wish to achieve goes up front brake pressure goes up and for a while, so will rear brake pressure, THEN as front brake pressure increases the brake force loads the front tire and unloads the rear, now the rear pressure applied must decrease or the rear tire will skid.

Stoppie.jpg

The highest possible stopping force occurs just before the rear tire achieves zero down force. As the rear continues to raise into the air, the front force applied must decrease or the bike and rider will rotate until a undesirable rider side down condition occurs. This shift in braking force is not so strong in cars or long low slung cruiser motorcycles as they tend to have a much lower CG. With cars the front tires will skid before the car rotates forward lifting the rear tires.
Late model race and sport bikes are beginning to incorporate rotation and loading sensors into throttle and brake controls limiting excessive rotation fore or aft. Us old farts on old bikes will just have to continue to practice our braking control. I have ridden several ABS bikes and done full clamp stops. Trust me ABS can REALLY stop a bike. You must be prepared to absorb the force of your body's continued forward motion with powerful arm and hand control. Add a passenger's weight shift and the limiting factor to a stop may well be your arm strength! This is not trivial; if a passenger does not expect a sudden stop their body will begin accelerating toward the rider through a foot or more of distance, before they strike the riders back with considerable force, not to mention a solid helmet to helmet smack. I did a practice two up hard stop but my wife did not understand I was doing so. A HAND to helmet smack followed a bit later!
 
Reading these posts i have to ask myself how much of the article was read, and how much was not and what part was taken from the writeup in relation to ones own idea............Most of the rear wheel, do not use rear brake part relates to short wheel base Sports bikes, (does make differential advice for 2 up or travel gear weight), and race set ups, although as it reads, that also depends on a riders style when racing............

At the very end there is a "Note:".......I suggest a reread especially the italics

Last note: It would be much easier for me to write “Don’t touch the rear brake on a sportbike”, but I will never default to this type of “you’re too stupid to get this” position..................... How good a rider do you want to be?........................How safe? ............How fast? ..............Do you want to master all roads in all conditions?...................... I’m writing to challenge you to step up your game, to master things like perfect mid-corner downshifts, rear-brake massaging, precise bike placement throughout your ride, covering the brakes in crowded areas, trailing brake pressure into a corner, sneaking on your brakes at lean angle. When the pace is up or the grip is down, easy-to-dispense default advice will hurt you badly. Master the rear brake today, so when it starts to sleet on the way home tomorrow you will be fine.

There are 2 other things that are just as important as good brakes.........Shocks and Tyres in good condition.
 
... My brain tells my right foot to press down to achieve lets say 30% braking, while my brain tells my right hand to squeeze to get 60 or 70% braking...

My braking algorithm has a subroutine, "call antique(rare, expensive, difficulty, need)".

During normal and casual non-panic braking, It'll apply 80%-100% rear braking and feather front braking as necessary...
 
its intresting, because of a bad foot I have had to alter my rear brake pedal which means having to physicaly move my foot onto the brake pedal ,have definitely noticed the difference in braking due to that slight difference in time to apply the rear brake , have always applied both brakes at the same time before just different pressures (was/ became just natural instinct ) now with the slight time delay and often not using the rear brake as its to much hassle to shift the foot found a lot more nose diving on the front end and the bike doesn't seem as stable under braking until that rear brake starts working... prefer drum brakes as seems to give a bit more feed back and also only ride on the road with no racing
 
Yes, but in a panic stop, your brain isn't going to tell you to only apply 30% (or whatever) to the rear, you'll just stomp on it, believe me, been there, done that.
Yes, I totally agree 5twins. When I'm saying 30% rear and 60 to 70% front, I'm talking about controlled braking, not panic stop braking.
In a panic stop we all grab full braking on both brakes.

In 25 years of biking, I can only recall 2 real emergencies. One was back in the 1970's, and I can't remember what I did with the brakes. The other one was 6 years ago, when a deer tried to T-bone me. Yes, I applied both brakes full on and the back end did start to slide a small amount, but I did not lose control of the bike.
 
The Cycle World article is about "racing". I see nothing in that article that applies to my defensive style "street" riding.

Quote:
" At 20K miles!! the rear disk brakes were completely shot, had to put on new pads and rotors the Wisconsin salt had eaten away the Chinese cast iron rotors, huge chunks were breaking away. That destroyed the pads."
Gary...............so Chevrolet trucks have really poor quality brake parts. I used to buy GM cars, but learned my lesson and don't buy them anymore because the Japanese vehicles are made much better. I have 60,000 miles (97,000 kms) on my Toyota Camry and my 4 brake rotors are in good condition. The pads have been changed once. No abnormal wear at all. We also have harsh winters, with salt
and gravel on the roads.

Quote:
"Another note for RG I believe you are expressing a misconception that may be dangerous to your health. Yes as the rate of speed reduction you wish to achieve goes up front brake pressure goes up and for a while, so will rear brake pressure, THEN as front brake pressure increases the brake force loads the front tire and unloads the rear, now the rear pressure applied must decrease or the rear tire will skid. The highest possible stopping force occurs just before the rear tire achieves zero down force. As the rear continues to raise into the air, the front force applied must decrease or the bike and rider will rotate until a undesirable rider side down condition occurs. This shift in braking force is not so strong in cars or long low slung cruiser motorcycles as they tend to have a much lower CG. With cars the front tires will skid before the car rotates forward lifting the rear tires."

Gary.................I can't understand any of what this last quote is saying. I ride in a manner such that the bike and myself will never "rotate". Don't confuse me with anyone that "races". I'm a conservative bike rider, that drives in the right lane, and 95 % of other bikes all pass me in the left lane, because I drive the posted speed limit. Since I drive at the posted speed limits, I seldom have any need to suddenly apply hard braking.
 
Please, I need to chime in now. Being a very experienced rider both on and off road I am understanding our different uses for rear brakes. This does vary with each if our uses such as : two up riding which benefits from more brakes, aggressive riding which uses our skills , off road which teaches sliding and such, safe leisurely riding which requires little braking Until a panic stop happens.. One of my biggest regrets ever was high side flopping my Beautiful 91 FJ1200 on 17" race compound Dunlops from a rear wheel lock up in a panic stop only 5 miles from my garage which busted the engine case, bent the sub frame, and destroyed a beautiful body. No worries, I simply ran on foot into the back of the dually (foreign asshole) at the train crossing. That FJ I rode all over Oregon, Montana, Cali to Laguna Seca twice. Portland Int Raceway hot laps, much much more. I loved that bike even more than my then wife who enjoyed 125 mph ! Point is, myself a life long time motorcyclist stabbed the rear so hard because of that bumber in front of me that I lost the bike ! Many people lose more than a bike from a rear wheel lock up ! Its very common.. now I really like my weak, pretty drum rear.. -RT
 
Got a bee in your bonnet RG.............Applying the racing lines and the same principles when riding on the road, (without the speed and staying with the road rules and legal limit), makes for safer, smoother, and even more economical riding It will also help the rider be in tune the the machine and an awareness of what is going on around you.

An article like that helps to remind us of the things we do, or not in some cases. Like reading the directions on some labels......I read to remember and keep me aware............Seen to many situations where those who know it all, (general statement), tell you they don't need to read no stinking instructions. .............I have seen a person lop off their thumb because they wouldn't listen.
 
My braking algorithm has a subroutine, "call antique(rare, expensive, difficulty, need)".

During normal and casual non-panic braking, It'll apply 80%-100% rear braking and feather front braking as necessary...

That is in effect how I ride all the time although lately I havn't even bothered to touch the front brake....
I've been down on the ground too many times to risk locking up the front brake on pavement ! I do Not grab it hard unless it's a panic stop ,then its well.... a Panic stop ! lock up everything and pray !
today I purposly hit the brakes hard on the XS on the pavement and mean hard.... neither locked up which was a bit dissapointing i expected the rear too... but it didn't and I probably didn't hit the front hard enough because I am a bit leary of front disks on a bike.....
I did experience the front dive down and the ass get lighter.... but it didn't break traction at all.
about 90% of the time I use the back brake ONLY.... i don't even touch the front at all or have my fingers over it.....

....That's just how I seez it fellers ! to each their own !
....Bob......
 
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If you take an advanced rider class such as the one they teach to motorcycle law enforcement they stress using the front brake more exclusively. I've done some pretty nice hard braking side slides with no bad results however in a total emergency situation anything can happen. Also if you decide to take one of these classes it's worth paying the few extra $ to rent one of their machines as it's going to end up on the ground at some point. after one of these courses you will be amazed at the things you can learn to do on two wheels. Been riding since I was 12 and found there was a lot of things I could make some definite improvements to.
 
Too many motorcycle magazines, or is it on line articles nowadays, love to talk about "racing" handling and braking, as if that is how most of us drive our bikes. They know that excites the young, say 16 to 40 crowd, not to mention that a lot of the advertising in the magazine is selling "speed" and "racing" parts. Well I'm not in the 16 to 40 crowd anymore, and even when I was, I drove conservatively.
Lots of young lads that drove motorcycles as if they could drive like a "racer", are now dead or crippled. Just look at the YouTube videos that show young lads smashing bikes and themselves. These magazines are in the business to make money, and they print what they think will fire up the young riders, and get them to spend money on the products, their advertisers sell.

I don't base my riding style or habits on magazine "racing" articles. Over 25 years of riding, I've made a few mistakes and had a few close calls. I've learned from those experiences, and I continue to learn each time I drive my bike. I'm still alive and not crippled.
I'm at 49 years of accident free driving with my car..................that's from being a defensive careful driver. 25 years riding bikes and also accident free.
 
Please, I need to chime in now. Being a very experienced rider both on and off road I am understanding our different uses for rear brakes. This does vary with each if our uses such as : two up riding which benefits from more brakes, aggressive riding which uses our skills , off road which teaches sliding and such, safe leisurely riding which requires little braking Until a panic stop happens.. One of my biggest regrets ever was high side flopping my Beautiful 91 FJ1200 on 17" race compound Dunlops from a rear wheel lock up in a panic stop only 5 miles from my garage which busted the engine case, bent the sub frame, and destroyed a beautiful body. No worries, I simply ran on foot into the back of the dually (foreign asshole) at the train crossing. That FJ I rode all over Oregon, Montana, Cali to Laguna Seca twice. Portland Int Raceway hot laps, much much more. I loved that bike even more than my then wife who enjoyed 125 mph ! Point is, myself a life long time motorcyclist stabbed the rear so hard because of that bumber in front of me that I lost the bike ! Many people lose more than a bike from a rear wheel lock up ! Its very common.. now I really like my weak, pretty drum rear.. -RT
125 mph....................you seem to enjoy driving fast. The day that the bumper suddenly appeared in front of you, were you perhaps driving too fast? If you had been driving more defensively, leaving a proper distance between you and the bumper, you would have
had time to slow down and avoid an accident. Sounds like you're blaming the guy that stopped at a rail crossing, for you having an accident. Clearly you are at fault, not the vehicle you ran into.
 
Way to make a conclusion or judgemenr on something . Its very true that I did really enjoy speed on that bike and did so for years. Not that day. In town near your home is where stats show most accidents occer and I fell victim to letting down my guard. The dually had no reason to stop. He was not familiar with the road ( or much else ) and I fell into that circumstance, the "surprise" we are taught to look out for. I failed and paid for it.The FJ was just too heavy to be sliding. It was a nice attempt tho. And a note , a dually truck does have some good braking ability I found out ! -RT
 
TimeMachine......................You need to man up and admit that the gentleman in the truck was the victim and you are the perpetrator of the accident. You are really mixed up....................calling him a "foreign a***ole", and "The dually had no reason to stop. He was not familiar with the road ( or much else )" What you are saying is called victim blaming. Are you racist as well?

Any vehicle has the right to stop on our highways, and the vehicle behind is required to stop safely. From everyone else's point of view, you are the a***ole biker that ran into the back of a stopped vehicle. You need to take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming an innocent person.

A 500 or 600 lb. motorcycle can stop in a shorter distance than a 4000 lb. truck, with both going at the same speed. It appears you were travelling at too high of a speed and were following too close to allow for safe braking.
 
Back in the 70's and early 80's I did my braking a bit differently than I do now.... few disk brakes were around none of my bikes had then at the time so I adjusted the front brake so it would NOT lock up on pavement for a street bike or on dirt for a dirt bike...
this gave me the ability to use the fromt brake almost all the time and it became habbit .... I was in town going between signal lights and
a young kid in a Car jumped in behind me obviously in a hurry.... too darn close !.... I applied my brakes a bit early for the next signal and
watched the idiot behind me he gets to about 2 feet from my rear wheel and I hear the sound of sliding wheels behind me...
I let up on my brakes a bit and am watching the rear view mirrors closely using my perfirial vision for what's ahead.... this idiot is still sliding all 4 wheels very close behind me.... so I just slide alongside of the car infront of me...... and come to a stop at about the drivers door and turn and look back.... the kid was obviously caught off guard at how fast a motorcycle can stop..... and his eyes were as big as Saucers
and had the PANIC look.... I just shook my head and continued on....
he came to a stop 3 feet from the car i pilled up allong side.... I never slid a single tire..... that kind of behaviour is ever present on the pavement you can out stop a car easy.... and they will hit you ....if you use both brakes continusely your Routinely stopping much faster than cars Can.... that is a dangerous habit to get into and one day you will be sandwitched inbetween 2 cars on the road....
when all 4 wheels of a car are locked up they go much further than the driver expects them too ..... that's normal. most car drivers are just plane brain dead.... and React not think to any given siduation....
so I brake consertively most of the times.... especially when there are cars behind me Using the front brake can stop you in about 1/2 the distance a car can stop at...... Guys... that is going to get you hit from the rear !.... drive Smart not to the letter correctly !
.....
My 2 coppers
....
Bob.........
 
Stopping, standing or parking prohibited.

300.440. 1. Except when necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic, or in compliance with law or the directions of a police officer or official traffic control device, no person shall:

(1) Stop, stand or park a vehicle:


RG are you inventing rules/laws/practices to fit your truth?
 
"RG are you inventing rules/laws/practices to fit your truth?"

Many jurisdictions if not most, the rear-ender is automatically at fault, the theory being he wasn't in control enough to avoid it, because it can always be avoided, by following basic principles (following distance, line of sight, etc). Also, from a motorcyclist survival point of view, it was also his fault... :) From a survival point of view everything is your fault...
 
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:agree:
that's what California does... the curcumstances have nothing to do with the facts... you hit a car from the rear YOU are at fault
..... that's just common knowledge !
...
Bob......
 
Spedo off perhaps ?
I remember getting a ticket for speeding in a school zone one time in LasVegas NV...... on a 100cc Kawasaki !
I slowed down to a crawl because I know the area was closely watched by the cops.... but didn't look at the spedo.... the officer got me with his speed gun doing 35mph in a 25mph zone. I pleaded no contest paid the steep fine and learned a good lesson !
.....
When you are used to going Fast all the time the legal limit seams way,way too slow. and speedometers are often off by about 10 mph.
slower or faster..... my Toyota pickup is off by 10 mph so at 70mph by the spedo I am actually only doing 60mph....<grin>
( smaller street tires will do that! )
...
Bob....
 
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