Winter project: upgrading time! (R6 forks and more...)

[gggGary]

I'll guess the new regulator is not the correct type or is defective?
The voltage drop is to be expected as the rotor draws in the neighborhood of 30 watts.
Rough running at idle with a TCI and a heavy charging draw is a known issue, it's related to magnetic fields produced by the rotor overwhelming a "weak" magnet for the pick ups confusing the TCI.
You do beautiful work...

 

[bosco659]

Got this one from domino, real nice OEM like unit. It has all the functions I wanted.
View attachment 192720

I rebuild the kill switch
View attachment 192721

I tried to find a lot of info online before I started my wiring. Just gonna post some details here if anyone else might be looking for this in the future.

Here is an example of the open barrel splices and raychem SQL shrink tube I used.
View attachment 192722
View attachment 192723
View attachment 192724

Got a new regulator and used a FEP automotive connector hereView attachment 192726

Getting the routing right was a pain. Especially because after you crimp or splice there is no way of fitting shrink tube anymore.
View attachment 192727


The battery box and headlight became very cramped with stuff. I tried to not over-connector things but never getting them apart is the other side of the coin.
View attachment 192728
I tried to label as much as possible, to help out the next guy in case there a problems. The next guy is probably me.

Really nice work overall. Can’t wait to see the finished product!

 

[Bjorn]

I called the seller of the R/R. They said that I did what I could. They will test it for me. Although they never have problems with the elextrex R/R.

 

[gggGary]

Chinese reg recs are known bad actors, the genuine $$$ Hitachi? or home built combo's are the way to fly.

 

[Bjorn]

Its not a OEM one. its made by Electrex in de UK. Dont know if its bad/good quality..

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/cgi...r_Yamaha_FZ600_XJ600_XJ650_XS650.html#SID=439

 

[Paul Sutton]

I bought my Virago R/R from Electrexworld and it has been running for 2 years/3000 miles without a problem on a PMA system. The price is the same as your R/R so I assume quality is also similar.

 

[Jim]

Well, since you made everything else for the bike, might as well make a reg/rec too.
Have a look here.

 

[Bjorn]

I might give that a try Jim!

Right now I've had it with this thing. I had a 3rd Older OEM R/R laying around. So I hooked it up to see what that would do. Is also charges, great.

However on both these old R/Rs I have, the tacho is completely tripping. This is the same behaviour I had last year right before I wanted to take the bike on a trip. This red light is blinking for no reason and the indicated RPMs are way off. http://www.xs650.com/threads/help-save-my-trip-bike-doesnt-run-when-warm.58231/

Here were multiple issues I had, but one was for sure this weird tacho behaviour.

Back then the problem seemed to be the grounding. Well.... Now with everything redone it's just running to the battery negative.

What am i missing here? This drives me mad.

Literally the only wires not redone right now are those of brushes, stator and pick up sensor. I'm talking about the part inside the engine cover only. This is because I don't want to solder a new wire onto ie the stator or pick up directly.....

Thinking about it. I could replace the brush leads because they have a ring terminal. Would need special wire and heat resistant tubing I guess.

Could all this be related to the old R/Rs I have??

 

[Paul Sutton]

Does the Carmo unit have a tacho output, or are you driving it direct from the ignition coil primary? If from the Carmo then you may have to set the software to get the correct rpm.

 

[Jim]

There's been reports of weak rotor magnets causing problems like you're having. I've always been skeptical but....
Is that an OEM or repop rotor you're using?

 

[Paul Sutton]

I meant to add the tacho may have a setting that needs to be adjusted for 1, 2, 3, or 4 cylinder engines.

 

[Bjorn]

Does the Carno unit have a tacho output, or are you driving it direct from the ignition coil primary? If from the Carno then you may have to set the software to get the correct rpm.

It has a wire wrapped around one of the spark plug leads. This is one of the 2 ways they state in the manual

Maybe I just need to put the bike away for a couple of days. Wait for the testresult of the R/R and take it from there

 

[Bjorn]

There's been reports of weak rotor magnets causing problems like you're having. I've always been skeptical but....
Is that an OEM or repop rotor you're using.

I got this last year from the Dutch XS owners club. They sell parts. They said I was a rewound one. I'm assuming it's an Yamaha model by the looks of it.

Yeah I've red things about that weak magnet. But it's hard to say if it's a XS-myth or a confirmed case with some data. That last is hard to find.

That's the reason I was pulling hairs out last year. Looked like every part I got was faulty. That just doesn't happen. I must be doing something wrong. Got something wired wrong and it ended up in the new wiring loom to.

That's why I got this bad dejavu feeling right now, like I'm back at square one

 

[Jan_P]

Hi
not read all . and not thought about it Not checked the stock wiring for that year model
but took a quick look.
Wiring is world class don't think I have seen better : But the principle I suspect is the problem
is that a multiple ground point for many items including the Ignition under the Allen bolt at right.
3 wires.

Designing for Micro controllers Ground separation is a rule of Thumb.
Not sure of what cables are there but it can be from regulator rectifier ..which can have spikes and fluctuation.

I cannot say so and I have not thought it trough .
But again the brute from charging needs to be as far as possible from the sensitive controller in the ignition
If it is as I Believe Connected together at the Downside might be to ask for trouble.
Even if it is like that on a post 80 stock bike that was another type of electronic
I would try to separate circuits as much as possible and the " Power " ones grounded to the frame
And ignition to the battery. minus perhaps even + 12 V with a breaker at least under fault finding.
Apologize if this is entirely off and not done a proper read up

 

[Bjorn]

Hi Jan!

Yes I took this advise from last year in consideration! What I did is this:

Below you see an overview

The batt negative has 2 leads: one to the frame on the right with the Allen bolt. To this ground point on the frame I ground: R/R, taillight and rear indicators.

But looking closely you can spot the second lead of the negative terminal going to a insulated copper strip on the left of the battery. This ground is used for: the TCI (Carmo unit), the tail and brake light relay and a accessory cable( not in use).

However in the end all the circuits need to complete through the battery negative. But this way I tried to keep the ground for the ignition as clean as possible. Let me know what you think

 

[gggGary]

@Jim and others we had an issue with some aftermarket or reworked rotors being less than stock thickness increasing the air gap tween magnet and pick ups.
I suspect Bjorn's tach action is reflection of the issues he is having with the rotor coil's magnetic field inducing misfires into the ignition.

 

[Bjorn]

@Jim and others we had an issue with some aftermarket or reworked rotors being less than stock thickness increasing the air gap tween magnet and pick ups.
I suspect Bjorn's tach action is reflection of the issues he is having with the rotor coil's magnetic field inducing misfires into the ignition.

Is there a specific gap thickness? I can measure mine and maybe compare that to others?

 

[Jan_P]

@Jim and others we had an issue with some aftermarket or reworked rotors being less than stock thickness increasing the air gap tween magnet and pick ups.
I suspect Bjorn's tach action is reflection of the issues he is having with the rotor coil's magnetic field inducing misfires into the ignition.

+1 sign me up there I also have suspicions regarding magnetic field round there for the Gonzo boys
There are brushes ,,with fire works sparks and things... on hand held machines there are toroid coils for reducing emissions .
That sparking depends om brush wear I would guess and for some like Jim having a top notch wiring and brushes Its one thing
But with more bouncing brushes it might be entirely different.

to Bjorn I shall read a little more look at the pictures and get back
Besides spiking and magnetic induced currents there is also the possibility of wires acting like antennas.
But i will look at the pictures ... think and get back

 

[Jan_P]

Hi Jan!

Yes I took this advise from last year in consideration! What I did is this:

Below you see an overview
View attachment 192840

The batt negative has 2 leads: one to the frame on the right with the Allen bolt. To this ground point on the frame I ground: R/R, taillight and rear indicators.
View attachment 192841
But looking closely you can spot the second lead of the negative terminal going to a insulated copper strip on the left of the battery. This ground is used for: the TCI (Carmo unit), the tail and brake light relay and a accessory cable( not in use).

However in the end all the circuits need to complete through the battery negative. But this way I tried to keep the ground for the ignition as clean as possible. Let me know what you think

A few first thoughts as a starting point for alterations
That is something I would change

This ground is used for: the TCI (Carmo unit), the tail and brake light relay and a accessory cable( not in use).

I had ignition problems with a Boyer system ( Very bad wiring . bordering to unusable )
And at some point in time I thought the hell with it
I connected 12 V bang boom straight in to the coil and box No breaker
And I ran one ground straight to minus
Kicked it and it ran perfect .
One cant leave power on at the Boyer. So I disconnected it and pulled it the regular route leaving the ground straight to battery
And it sits there . Now ... Working Fine
There is no need to have the other items at the same point as the ignition and can affect it.

If I get this right the Carmo is sitting on top at the back fender and that ground is pulled past the battery to the ground point
copper and back again :That may be an antenna.
Thinking out loud here ..as starting point
Pulling the ground from the Carmo direct to the minus on battery ( Shorter lead and certain ground )

Everything else to the copper strip at least R/R regulator rectifier. Getting a little longer travel for spikes.

Where is the coil grounded ? Possibility draw separate wire to minus ??? Ground problem is a big issue
And solves many cases of misfiring on these bikes.

Please think it over .. see if it makes sense .. we talk about it. I am stuck with the Boyer experience
+ and - correct box and coil it ran perfect immediately.
And - being the determining factor In that case

 

[Paul Sutton]

Have you tried Option 1 where the tacho is connected to the +ve of the ignition coil? This can be more stable than Option 2.
With Option 2 the quality of the signal is very dependent on the number of turns wrapped around the ignition lead. I suggest you increase the number by 2 turns to see if this improves the tacho stability, then maybe even increase by a further 2 turns. I had to do this recently when adding a digital tacho to my petrol generator. It was giving very erratic rpm readings until I increased the number of turns.

I hope the answer is near.