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ANLAF
XS650 Guru
I know what you mean with the hard to pull clutch, I felt that way at first. I have got used to it, now (XSLeo is right), and it is a great deal easier since I put new clutch plates in and lubricated with the plenty of grease in the pushrod area, and the thick stuff in the cable (as 5twins says).
Anlaf
Anlaf
Bigfeet
to many projects
So that's what they look like. In all seriousness how well do these things work? My ez pull cable is great but a lighter clutch would be even better
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
The moose racing device seem to help a little but I'm using an NOS cable that I lubed but is still offering some good resistance.
I'm thinking at least for us (its the wife's bike) it might be best fixed with a combination of things:
-Moose racing EZ pull device
-New Shorter elbowless EZ pull cable from 650 Central (the moose device adds about 6" to the cable)
-New worm gear setup down by the case with a longer arm
-better cable routing
-Well lubed cable
Praying that all this works...or else we might have to try:
-A different hydraulic setup
-EMF auto clutch (they quoted me $500-600)
-Foot clutch with jockey shift
I'm thinking at least for us (its the wife's bike) it might be best fixed with a combination of things:
-Moose racing EZ pull device
-New Shorter elbowless EZ pull cable from 650 Central (the moose device adds about 6" to the cable)
-New worm gear setup down by the case with a longer arm
-better cable routing
-Well lubed cable
Praying that all this works...or else we might have to try:
-A different hydraulic setup
-EMF auto clutch (they quoted me $500-600)
-Foot clutch with jockey shift
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
Has anybody ever tried setting a clutch up like a mountain bike shifter?
On my mtn bike I rotate the left grip to change gears with the cable. Would something like that be safe on a motorcycle? Heck a person could even just reverse a throttle setup to the other side if you had to.
Doing something like this would at least allow you to use the wrist in conjunction with your grip force to pull the clutch.
On my mtn bike I rotate the left grip to change gears with the cable. Would something like that be safe on a motorcycle? Heck a person could even just reverse a throttle setup to the other side if you had to.
Doing something like this would at least allow you to use the wrist in conjunction with your grip force to pull the clutch.
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
Looks like you could patent a new design, Capt_Zoom. If you can overcome the resistance with hydraulic, it's a winner. I like it when ideas flow, most get thrown out, but some work and catch on.
Anlaf
Anlaf
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
The hydraulic worked but eventually puked out. Also no matter how much I adjusted it, it wanted to slip at high RPM. I could still slowly climb to 110mph but if I punched it at say 80 it would just let loose.
My wife is strong but has some arthritis in her hands so I'm trying to think of alternatives. With the throttle style idea I could even incorporate one of those cramp busters if I had to.
Funny but i've been doing so much testing and adjusting with her clutch that I've been neglecting my raider. Took it out for a ride this morning. When I was about to leave I started thinking my clutch had a leak since there was so little resistance. I'm like WTF then I realize that it was just that I was getting used to the super hard pull on the xs.
My wife is strong but has some arthritis in her hands so I'm trying to think of alternatives. With the throttle style idea I could even incorporate one of those cramp busters if I had to.
Funny but i've been doing so much testing and adjusting with her clutch that I've been neglecting my raider. Took it out for a ride this morning. When I was about to leave I started thinking my clutch had a leak since there was so little resistance. I'm like WTF then I realize that it was just that I was getting used to the super hard pull on the xs.
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
Wow! this thread as gone super-technical - I'm not up to words like 'vice' and 'soft jaws' yet.
Anlaf
Anlaf
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
When Parts arrive next week I'll be trying one of 650central EZ pull handles and also trying a twist clutch setup. Should be interesting to see which works better.
My wife is a biomechanical and motor control expert on the human hand and she mentioned told me that the human hand and wrist would generate far more force than one can with a lever. Plus we could always add a tab onto the grip to act like a cramp buster to provide more leverage. Our figures suggest that with our current clutch setup it'll need about 35-45 degrees of twist to pull the clutch lever in the case.
My wife is a biomechanical and motor control expert on the human hand and she mentioned told me that the human hand and wrist would generate far more force than one can with a lever. Plus we could always add a tab onto the grip to act like a cramp buster to provide more leverage. Our figures suggest that with our current clutch setup it'll need about 35-45 degrees of twist to pull the clutch lever in the case.
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
So, on the biomechanical side it can be done, then, that is interesting, but on the bike-o-mechanical side are you thinking of a twist mechanism transferring at the left-hand case cover to a fitting that pushes the pushrods - as in a twist grip to hydraulic push system?
Anlaf
Anlaf
Hey Capt_Zoom, here's some numbers for you:
I have measured clutch action/movement and forces on my early XS1B, later models will be somewhat different, largely due to different worm-screw arm length.
XS1 clutch lever - 2.5" travel max - 30-35 lbs pull
XS1 clutch cable - .65" travel max - 4:1 leverage ratio = 120-140 lbs cable tension
XS1 clutch worm - .080" travel max - 8:1 leverage ratio, 32:1 total = 960-1120 lbs pushrod pressure
The actual values for force will be somewhat less because some of the actuating force is from friction.
The XS1 worm screw arm is shorter than the later models, giving different travel and leverage values.
I have measured clutch action/movement and forces on my early XS1B, later models will be somewhat different, largely due to different worm-screw arm length.
XS1 clutch lever - 2.5" travel max - 30-35 lbs pull
XS1 clutch cable - .65" travel max - 4:1 leverage ratio = 120-140 lbs cable tension
XS1 clutch worm - .080" travel max - 8:1 leverage ratio, 32:1 total = 960-1120 lbs pushrod pressure
The actual values for force will be somewhat less because some of the actuating force is from friction.
The XS1 worm screw arm is shorter than the later models, giving different travel and leverage values.
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
I'm going to start with a very simple system to begin with...entirely cable operated. Parts are costing me around $15 in addition to the cable. I also already have a new worm gear mechanism from Mikesxs that I'll eventually install. not sure if I'll be able to use the stock cable, or the EZ pull one I have from 650 central, or if I'll have to switch to something else.
I also have that moose racing EZ pull I can stick in line to see if that helps as well. I think overall its going to be a combination of things to get it to work well for my wife's hand.
I also have that moose racing EZ pull I can stick in line to see if that helps as well. I think overall its going to be a combination of things to get it to work well for my wife's hand.
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
I like the vision - if you can see it, it will happen. I didn't quite follow how you are going to compensate for the length of pull (as TwoMany's figures above) - I might have missed something in your reply, but length of pull to twist (the torque to pi ratio) seems to indicate the need to incorporate something in order to avoid, well, having to perform an exaggerated twist of the new clutch handle device.
Anlaf
Anlaf
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
Thinking it through a little, we are all used to twisting the throttle, but not all used to having both handles that twist. Is there any inherent instability built-in to the idea (I am talking imbalance in handlebar stability that might send the bike suddenly left) or would you consider twist grips operating antagonistically (throttle release to engage clutch) will just balance or cancel each other out?
Anlaf
Anlaf
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
Anlaf[/QUOTE]
Exactly...nothing comes without work. Anyway my measured max pull is equal to 51 degrees around the circumference of the twist grip (which is basically another throttle assembly that is a push/pull type). so if everything works right I only have to twist 35-45 degrees to get pull the cable enough for the clutch to actuate.
Exactly...nothing comes without work. Anyway my measured max pull is equal to 51 degrees around the circumference of the twist grip (which is basically another throttle assembly that is a push/pull type). so if everything works right I only have to twist 35-45 degrees to get pull the cable enough for the clutch to actuate.
ANLAF, in the period of time known as B.M. (before me), Harleys and others had a twistgrip on the left side to control spark advance. Add to that the footclutch and tank shifter, and you have a busy/thrilling ride...
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
I'm sure it'll take a little practice to get used to but I don't think there will be any more instability than when someone tries a power takeoff or punching it to full throttle.
Yeah the idea came from remembering the spark advance on old bikes. There were some really old bikes that have had a twist clutch before as well. Then I remembered the exile choppers twist clutch so I looked up its design...which is more complex than I'm doing since its an internal setup.
ANLAF
XS650 Guru
I look forward to it, Capt_Zoom - just don't go adding any nostalgic spark advance devices. I like a bust thrilling ride, TwoMany, but my idea of heaven is two hands on those bars moving more or less in a straight line.
Anlaf
Anlaf
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
Well, the twist clutch is going to have to wait. The parts came and the farrells for the clutch cable don't quite fit into the housing or the throttle sleeve. So I set it up using a traditional lever.
My setup was is now as follows:
-Brand new worm gear assembly lubed well with bearing grease.
-650central 46" clutch cable without elbow. I ordered the 46" thinking I was going to use the moose racing EZ pull mechanism...right now I haven't but the cable just barely works legthwise. If I need more length I'll just add the moose device.
-A $50 cyclegear trackside adjustable clutch lever assembly (removed the dust shield). http://www.cyclegear.com/CycleGear/.../Snapback-Clutch-Lever-Assembly/p/43337_59409 I'm not a huge fan of this brand but we wanted a black assembly and lever to match the right side.
Routing.
I still have to make the routing more permanent but at present I have it routed just behind the choke on the left side, over the choke, under the tank to the right of the headlight backside and over to the left side bar. For the moment I just have it zip tied to my throttle cable which runs under the tank on the left side of the top motor mounts. I also lubed the hell out of the cable using regular cable lube.
The verdict:
Holy crap what a difference. Went from a 20lb+ lever pull (measured by a fish scale attached to the end of the lever) to a 4lb pull. My wife thinks she can handle this just fine. I'll do more fine tuning when the roads are dry but I think we have a great setup as is. Its about half to one third the clutch pull than my Yamaha Raider's hydraulic clutch. i think she'll be a happy camper.
My setup was is now as follows:
-Brand new worm gear assembly lubed well with bearing grease.
-650central 46" clutch cable without elbow. I ordered the 46" thinking I was going to use the moose racing EZ pull mechanism...right now I haven't but the cable just barely works legthwise. If I need more length I'll just add the moose device.
-A $50 cyclegear trackside adjustable clutch lever assembly (removed the dust shield). http://www.cyclegear.com/CycleGear/.../Snapback-Clutch-Lever-Assembly/p/43337_59409 I'm not a huge fan of this brand but we wanted a black assembly and lever to match the right side.
Routing.
I still have to make the routing more permanent but at present I have it routed just behind the choke on the left side, over the choke, under the tank to the right of the headlight backside and over to the left side bar. For the moment I just have it zip tied to my throttle cable which runs under the tank on the left side of the top motor mounts. I also lubed the hell out of the cable using regular cable lube.
The verdict:
Holy crap what a difference. Went from a 20lb+ lever pull (measured by a fish scale attached to the end of the lever) to a 4lb pull. My wife thinks she can handle this just fine. I'll do more fine tuning when the roads are dry but I think we have a great setup as is. Its about half to one third the clutch pull than my Yamaha Raider's hydraulic clutch. i think she'll be a happy camper.
Capt_Zoom
Raider Rider/xs newbie
Now for the twist throttle idea. After seeing how light my pull is now I have no doubt that a twist could work. This is the part I ordered from Dennis Kirk.
https://www.denniskirk.com/motion-pro/push-pull-throttle-black.p57549.prd/57549.sku
To get it to work with the 650central clutch cable I'd have to do the following. either cut off or shave down the cable ferrell so it can fit into the throttle assembly. I'd also need to make a threaded (both inside and out) insert so a regular clutch adjustment screw could fit. Next If the ferrule didn't fit into the sleeve after shaving I'd have to enlarge one of the holes probably a millimeter so the ferrule would fit. Keep in mind my old NOS stock clutch cable had a plastic piece that went over the ferrule so it would have been a problem working with the twist clutch. So that's where things are.
I know this...if my wife likes the lever she's probably not going to want me to play with it. So the twist clutch might have to wait for my next build. I'm keeping the parts. Sorry its going to have to wait guys. Couple things though if anyone wants to try this. Levers typically have a 4:1 pull ratio. A twist clutch would be similar to a pulley mechanism but I don't know the formulas to calculate how that 1.25" pulley would reduce the strength required to pull the clutch cable...which working backward from my 4lbs and a 4:1 ratio would be something like 16lbs to pull the cable out with just your hands. Its been so long since I had physics but IIRC a pull used like this should cut the 16lb load in half, which would put the twist at about 8lbs for a 35-45 degree twist. 8lbs is about what my Raider's clutch lever pull is.
https://www.denniskirk.com/motion-pro/push-pull-throttle-black.p57549.prd/57549.sku
To get it to work with the 650central clutch cable I'd have to do the following. either cut off or shave down the cable ferrell so it can fit into the throttle assembly. I'd also need to make a threaded (both inside and out) insert so a regular clutch adjustment screw could fit. Next If the ferrule didn't fit into the sleeve after shaving I'd have to enlarge one of the holes probably a millimeter so the ferrule would fit. Keep in mind my old NOS stock clutch cable had a plastic piece that went over the ferrule so it would have been a problem working with the twist clutch. So that's where things are.
I know this...if my wife likes the lever she's probably not going to want me to play with it. So the twist clutch might have to wait for my next build. I'm keeping the parts. Sorry its going to have to wait guys. Couple things though if anyone wants to try this. Levers typically have a 4:1 pull ratio. A twist clutch would be similar to a pulley mechanism but I don't know the formulas to calculate how that 1.25" pulley would reduce the strength required to pull the clutch cable...which working backward from my 4lbs and a 4:1 ratio would be something like 16lbs to pull the cable out with just your hands. Its been so long since I had physics but IIRC a pull used like this should cut the 16lb load in half, which would put the twist at about 8lbs for a 35-45 degree twist. 8lbs is about what my Raider's clutch lever pull is.
