Fried Electrical

[Gratger66]

Been cruising through this forum for a while now and have nearly completed my bike off the information in the tech section and forums - a true testament to this community!

I was attempting to fix a charging problem using curly's guide. I was on to assessing the regulator by bypassing the green wire to ground and as soon as I turned the key the headlight went from lit to off in about 1 second. Now nothing happens when I turn the key. The battery is fully charged and I've hooked up an old regulator that I know works and didn't fix the problem - so I don't think I have fried the regulator, but I have likely fried something else. Trying to logic through what I may have done but I am very much so an amateur when it comes to electrical.

Any thoughts?

 

[MaxPete]

What year is the bike? That is important information as early bikes (pre-'77 - I THINK) had only one fuse while later bikes had 4 fuses.

The single fuse model has a fuse holder inside the RH sidecover below the seat and behind the air box. The 4 fuse models have a fuse block under the seat right behind the battery.

In any event, you may simply have blown a fuse - so the problem may be very simple to fix.

 

[Gratger66]

It's a '77 with the single fuse. I just looked and the fuse was blown.. swapped it out and I am back in action!

I still have this charging problem ahead of me and would like to complete curly's guide but am hesitant after this incident. Could a blown fuse during this test be an indication of the charging problem?

 

[MaxPete]

Sorry - but I just do not know.

One thing I can say for sure is that many, if not most XS650 charging system problems can be fixed with a new set of alternator brushes. These small parts are not expensive and are easy to replace. They wear out in something between 6000 and 20,000 miles and once they wear too much - your battery will gradually go flat.

One key thing you would need for the job is a good set of JIS screwdrivers. They look like Phillips - BUT - they are NOT Phillips.

Anyhow - the brushes live under the round cover (it says YAMAHA on it) on left hand side engine case. Here is a photos of them (there are two). I recommend you search on the term "alternator brushes" and read-up on how to replace them. It is a 5 minute screwdriver job (I have done it at night, in the rain beside a road with a grumpy girlfriend holding the flashlight).

 

[DanielBlack]

The 'jump the green wire' trick in step 3 is for the later models. Our 77s have the early charging system.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/expanded-charging-system-guide-in-progress.10561/

The big difference between the two is that our early regulator makes or breaks a +12v supply to the brushes. The later models makes and breaks the brushes' ground.

By jumping the green wire direct to ground on a 77, you had created a short circuit. The fuse did exactly what it's supposed to do. All is well, and your blown fuse has nothing to do with the larger issue.

 

[Gratger66]

MaxPete - I will do some research on the brushes and check the condition of mine... don't want to get caught in the rain fixing those with the girlfriend or she would have my head. I will report back and let you know what I find.

The 'jump the green wire' trick in step 3 is for the later models. Our 77s have the early charging system.

Ahhh I figured that as long as you had the solid state regulator that was the test you wanted to do. I just read back through curly's guide and it seems the rest of the tests are along the lines of assessing voltage and resistance at different locations, so I should be alright to move forward. Short circuiting my bike on day one of electric, I'm in for the long haul.

 

[MaxPete]

Good man G66!

I actually had to change them twice on the road (I'm not a quick learner). The first time was in about 1978 and my bike which was equipped with the same girlfriend, simply stopped running and I coasted off the road. I had no idea what was wrong, but I had lots of fuel and the electrical system was dead as a door nail. We stood there for about 5 minutes wondering how far it was to the next town (about 18 miles as I recall) - and what what comes rumbling over the hill....but a guy on ANOTHER Yamaha XS650.

He stopped and asked what was wrong and when I told him, his literally pulled a set of new alternator brushes out of his jacket pocket and said, "You need a set of these". I didn't know what they were, but he told me to get my screwdriver out and remove the LH alternator cover and remove the teeny little screws - while he chatted up my girlfriend. Once I had the old brushes out, it was obvious that they were shot - and so I replaced them with his new ones and promised him that I would carry a spare set and donate them to another rider if ever required. At that, I started kicking and within 15 or 20 kicks, the bike started and ran like new. As I recall it a set of new brushes cost about $7.00 in the late 70s.

The second replacement in the rain at night took place a year or so and 12,000 miles later - but that time, I had my own spares. She wasn't happy, but the rain had already ruined that evening so...the brushes were not a big deal.

BTW - nobody (but nobody) knows more about charging system problems than DanielBlack. He battled his '77s charger system for several months and now has it totally sorted out. In that process, he went through the entire system like a Mr. Clean white tornado and detailed everything in his thread about his bike Stella. If you search on the term "Stella" - you can read the entire saga.

As for the brushes, they are about 4-5 mm square cross-section pieces of carbon and are mounted on little spring-loaded brackets. There is a line engraved on each brush which indicates the wear limit (I think it is 7 mm) and so if your brushes are down to near that length - replace them and toss the old ones. Here is what they look like "in the buff".

Pete

 

[Gratger66]

MaxPete - I'm no expert... but it seems your problem may not have been the brushes - but the girlfriend. Hope this helps when diagnosing future problems
Pretty unbelievable that the very part you needed was just up the road, I am very excited to be a part of the XS650 community. I thought I was just getting a cool bike. I initially bought this bike to do a "quick turnaround" and soon realized I came in with the wrong mindset, now I am thoroughly enjoying the learning curve and the camaraderie of all involved.

Just pulled my brushes and they are right around 7.5 mm. So perhaps they should be working but I am gonna call it close enough to pick up a new pair. I'll pick up a second pair too so I can start paying it forward in my amateur years.

Looks like you just signed DanielBlack up for some messages in the near future!

 

[MaxPete]

Yup - those brushes may be the problem.

DB is an amazing guy. Incredibly thorough and determined to get to the bottom of technical issues.

Cheers,

Pete

PS - you are right about the GF. She turned out to be a bit of a pain....

 

[DanielBlack]

Thank you, Pete. Yes, I won most of my charging battles, but an expert I am not. This excellent forum of ours pulled me through just as it will our new friend.

G66, you'll get there. First things first, what are you working with? The bike in your avatar is clearly modified. You mentioned you have a solid-state regulator, the stock 77 is mechanical. Any other mods made to the electrical system? Photos are extremely helpful. I am amazed by what the real experts around here can catch when given a good photo to work with. 1000 words or more.

At 7.5mm there's a great chance new brushes will solve the problem. What are your symptoms?

Incidentally, I've got some brushes coming in the mail tomorrow. One set for immediate use, the other to be carried as the good professor suggests.

 

[MaxPete]

See 66, ahhhh tol' ya he was a good guy!

All seriousness aside - DB is right - photos and info on your bike are really important for getting correct knowledge from the group....as is a sense of humour.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Gratger66]

Right on guys! Feels really good to know I am not just taking shots in the dark anymore.

DB. The bike was pretty significantly modified when I bought it - but it was mostly body work. I've since replaced the battery with a shorai Li/ion and a reg/rec combo (pictured below, kindly ignore the welds). The guy I bought the bike from told me the old reg was shot, of course I hadn't jumped into the deep end of diagnosing the problems myself yet, so I just went online and looked at what was recommended.
Outside of these two adjustments, the electrical is stock - according to my clymbers manual.

Interesting side note - The bike was charging before I changed the battery, so I did some research into whether it was a compatibility problem with the charging system and the li/ion. As far as I could tell there shouldn't have been a problem here, but I didn't have the opportunity to talk to someone who knew so much about our bikes charging system - do think I could have a problem here? The headlight does get brighter when I get into higher RPM's so I know SOME charging is happening. Bike kills the battery in about 8 min at idle, and ~20 min when riding - so definitely some charging.

 

[DanielBlack]

I can't speak toward your li/ion battery or reg/rec combo. But do continue your research to be sure they are suitable.

Is the reg/rec mounted under the seat? There are fins on it for a very good reason; it needs to shed heat. Be sure it's mounted in a spot with good air flow. The stock rectifier was mounted on the bottom of the battery box and that's where I kept it when I replaced my own.

The increase in headlight brightness does signify some charging. With the brushes within .5mm of minimum spec, I'd bet you'll be all set to go as soon as they're replaced. When they're that short there is less spring pressure on them, possibly reducing your potential voltage. I got mine from Rick's Electronics. There are less expensive options, but Rick's enjoys a good reputation amongst the forum.

 

[Gratger66]

DB and Pete,

Wrapped up a couple of items that allowed me to take the bike out for a spin with the new brushes, finished a 5 mile ride with a full battery.
DB, when you mentioned the reg/rec, I had it mounted under the seat cowl. I've since mounted it on the underside of my electronics box, thanks for the heads up.

As for charging the li/ion (shorai) on the original 650 charging system -- I read up on a couple of different forums before I bought the battery and most people really enjoyed the battery without any problems. Their website says that there shouldn't be any problem, but that charge distribution amongst the cells may become uneven over time. Their recommended fix (of course) is to buy their charger and hook it up after a couple of rides.

Thanks again for all the help, very happy to be getting some more rides in before the summer is up. Cheers.

 

[NorazDad]

Just to throw a curve here, but I love my lion and my pma, but it took quite while to sort out the charging issues with my rec/reg. I now run with a permanent volt meter. I do not expect anyone to ride up with a new pamco if I break down however.