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Hand made Aluminum tanks
- Thread starter Flattracker94
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ippytattoo
Just another grumpy old hack.
That looks like some quality work. Very nice.
Clayton
Clayton
deadchef
xsbobblehead
dayum! very nice!
Really top notch work!
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Very nice. the Champion style is my choice
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Center post mount.
tompac
XS650 Member
for sale?
Flattracker94
Flattracker94
Those tanks were built for past projects/customers. You can contact me @ my shop for more information. Thanks Curtis
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
What alloy is the stock you are you working with? Do you heat treat the completed tank?
Flattracker94
Flattracker94
Tanks are made using a soft alloy for forming. Heat treating would only make the tanks more susceptible to cracking.
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Ok, still don't know what the 4 digit alloy number is, which was my question. As far as Dave's question, I seen on the web site you make them with 0.090 thick starting thickness. Did not say what finished thickness is, BUT, even if they are using a non-structural alloy (3003, for example) a finished thicknesss of 0.070 cold worked to form is going to still be pretty substantially stout, even in the annealed condition.
Heat treatment does not necessarily make an alloy more succeptable to cracks. In several cases, it's greatest benefit is to stabilize properties to vastly improve corrosion resistance. Knowing how thick the metal is, and assuming it's melted beer cans (3003) you can probably play hackey sack with it in the shop without hurting it much.
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
I'd guess even a pro hackey sack player occasionally misses ans the sack hits the floor?
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Sure, dropping it, you can put a dent in it, but if it has around 80% or so retention of cross section after forming, then it's going to be AT LEAST as robust as the stock tank.
650performance
XS650 Addict
A racer once told me he cryo'd all his aluminum components ... He said they were much more resistant to cracking/breaking from the bike's vibration, etc.
Never tired it myself, but it's an intriguing idea.
Thoughts?
Never tired it myself, but it's an intriguing idea.
Thoughts?
Read-up on cryogenic stress-relieving long ago. It's a preferred practice for performance-oriented steel parts, like precision rifle barrels and hotrod conrods. The procedures, applications, and theory of operation were documented for steels. Don't recall any mention about aluminum. Could be something new since then...
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Cryogenics take a step of heat treatment to the extreme. When we start to heat treat an aluminum alloy, it is usually annealed, or in the O condition. This is when the material is the most ductile for forming. Most structural alloys will work harden as you are forming, and complex parts can build up enough work hardening that the part has to be re-annealed several times during the forming process to relieve the internal stresses being developed by the cold working process. We done this 4 times making the door frame for the Constellation by hand. We debated a hot hydroform process, but the cost was triple what it was to pound a couple out by hand.
So, once you have your desired final form, and all thermal modification is complete, to include any welding involved, it is time to Solution heat treat, if you did not weld. If you DID weld, the craftsman's trick of the trade is to re-anneal the entire assembly one more time prior to solution heat treat.
Solution heat treatment gets it's name from the Greek solidus. Solidus is the solid matter state of the alloy, followed at rising temperature by liquidus, the point that the metal will pour or collapse from vertical form. In solution heat treatment, we elevate the alloy to a point 40-60 percent into the range of temperature BETWEEN solidus and liquidus, and get all the molecules moving at the same speed and in uniform direction. Any compression of the molecules is relieved, and any stretched areas or thinning of the molecular bond is filled, and everything has homogenous properties. This state is preserved by quenching the part quickly in cool water. The molecules stop "flowing" and are in a semi-bonded state. The part "ages" over the next 72 hours to develop the final strength properties we use for calculations. This is called a natural age hardening, where the passage of time at normal range atmospheric temperatures is all that is used. In artificial age hardening, we can take that part, after it is naturally age hardened to it's intermediate temper, and elevate it's temperature once again, but only into the 240-280 degree range, depending on which process is specified, or develops the specific characteristic we are going for the best. The part is raised to the specific temperature for anywhere from 8 to 40 hours, then cooled by removing from the oven. In working with a few folks that know WHAY more than I do (they came from the F35/F22 program), I've been told of proprietary processes that do liquid nitrogen bath cryogenic treatment to annealed materials (to stabilize grain boundaries and stress relieve highly stressed stretch and compression points) intermediate heat treated materials (to accelerate the development of the intermediate properties for maufacturing purposes) and to the advanced age hardened or over-aged conditions of some of the newer unobtainium (7150, 7165) to modify corrosion resistance or after a shot peening treatment on certain of these high grade alloys (supposedly aids in homogenizing the effects of the shot peening)
In the end, non-ferrus metal work (whitesmithing) is no less technical and no less a trade than blacksmithing, you have a significant amount of information to apply to your craft that has nothing to do with pounding out pretty parts on a shot bag and an English wheel, if you expect your product to endure the test of time. A poor heat treat condition for the intended use results in failure. Either high cycle fatigue in the case of high stress attachment or uneven heat treat, or not enough strength in the material to support the in-service loads without bearing or compression failure. This is what engineers are supposed to figure out on paper (or screen, nowadays) for you before you make the first lick. If not, lessons can be hard, and expensive.
If I were experimenting with heat treatment or cryogenic treatment, I know enough to know it would be useless without a rigorously controlled and repeatable test protocol to validate the increase or decrease in strength, durability, ductility, or corrosion resistance.
Attached is a pic of the cast block we made to beat out the double zee cross section of the secondary cockpit door in a single homogenous piece. We made 3, just in case. A one-off forming job is NEVER just one, if you are smart.
So, once you have your desired final form, and all thermal modification is complete, to include any welding involved, it is time to Solution heat treat, if you did not weld. If you DID weld, the craftsman's trick of the trade is to re-anneal the entire assembly one more time prior to solution heat treat.
Solution heat treatment gets it's name from the Greek solidus. Solidus is the solid matter state of the alloy, followed at rising temperature by liquidus, the point that the metal will pour or collapse from vertical form. In solution heat treatment, we elevate the alloy to a point 40-60 percent into the range of temperature BETWEEN solidus and liquidus, and get all the molecules moving at the same speed and in uniform direction. Any compression of the molecules is relieved, and any stretched areas or thinning of the molecular bond is filled, and everything has homogenous properties. This state is preserved by quenching the part quickly in cool water. The molecules stop "flowing" and are in a semi-bonded state. The part "ages" over the next 72 hours to develop the final strength properties we use for calculations. This is called a natural age hardening, where the passage of time at normal range atmospheric temperatures is all that is used. In artificial age hardening, we can take that part, after it is naturally age hardened to it's intermediate temper, and elevate it's temperature once again, but only into the 240-280 degree range, depending on which process is specified, or develops the specific characteristic we are going for the best. The part is raised to the specific temperature for anywhere from 8 to 40 hours, then cooled by removing from the oven. In working with a few folks that know WHAY more than I do (they came from the F35/F22 program), I've been told of proprietary processes that do liquid nitrogen bath cryogenic treatment to annealed materials (to stabilize grain boundaries and stress relieve highly stressed stretch and compression points) intermediate heat treated materials (to accelerate the development of the intermediate properties for maufacturing purposes) and to the advanced age hardened or over-aged conditions of some of the newer unobtainium (7150, 7165) to modify corrosion resistance or after a shot peening treatment on certain of these high grade alloys (supposedly aids in homogenizing the effects of the shot peening)
In the end, non-ferrus metal work (whitesmithing) is no less technical and no less a trade than blacksmithing, you have a significant amount of information to apply to your craft that has nothing to do with pounding out pretty parts on a shot bag and an English wheel, if you expect your product to endure the test of time. A poor heat treat condition for the intended use results in failure. Either high cycle fatigue in the case of high stress attachment or uneven heat treat, or not enough strength in the material to support the in-service loads without bearing or compression failure. This is what engineers are supposed to figure out on paper (or screen, nowadays) for you before you make the first lick. If not, lessons can be hard, and expensive.
If I were experimenting with heat treatment or cryogenic treatment, I know enough to know it would be useless without a rigorously controlled and repeatable test protocol to validate the increase or decrease in strength, durability, ductility, or corrosion resistance.
Attached is a pic of the cast block we made to beat out the double zee cross section of the secondary cockpit door in a single homogenous piece. We made 3, just in case. A one-off forming job is NEVER just one, if you are smart.
Attachments
Thanx for that writeup, JD. Very informative.
Reminds me of the 1951 film, 'No Highway in the Sky', with Jimmy Stewart...
Reminds me of the 1951 film, 'No Highway in the Sky', with Jimmy Stewart...
Flattracker94
Flattracker94
jd750ace, 3003 H14 is the material of choice most tank builders and metal shapers use. I use .090" on all my tanks. Depending on the tank design when using .090" material the majority of my tanks become thicker, to about .115" thickness. My tanks get thicker in the areas that are shaped to compound or reverse compound curves. When you shrink metal (done correctly without actually creating what I would call damage) you are actually gathering metal and making the material thicker. I rarely use english wheels, hammers or plannishing which are all forms of shaping metal by stretching which one would be thinning the material. Welding process and building practices are all important and most reputable builders know what to do and how to do it or they would not be doing what they are doing.
