War on Drugs?

gggGary said:
Wide prescription/ medical recommendation of Oxycontin fueled the beginning of this round of narcotics addiction. There tends to be a 50 year cycle of narcotics use/abuse. The lessons of the last crisis are slowly forgotten/ignored til the next round starts.
The ability to manufacture narcotics has changed the game. The war will have to be fought at the user end of the chain.
Having come of age during last big narcotics surge the schools worked hard to warn about stigmatize drug use. Are they doing that this time around? I truly don't know.
My daughter's suicide at the age of 31 had a lot to do with an addiction to Doctor prescribed Oxycontin.
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So sorry to hear that Gary. I have sympathy for addicts as I was a nicotine addict. However, those that became addicted after a Dr's presscription get more sympathy from me than those who intentionally use illicit drugs. I have been very fortunate in that my respect for my parents was far greater than my desire to "fit in" or "experiment".
 
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Defiantly a problem and solutions are had to come buy. If true, That dogs cant be used because of their sensitive noses/smell means their lives are in danger then this means a lot of fentanyl is getting through because of a failure to be able to find an alternative to using dogs. The value of a small amount, also means it is harder to detect, and easier to hide in small quantities.

Going by the graph below it also shows the problem jumped during Covid. Seizures were way up and were overdoses and deaths.

Depending on what is read and how it is interpreted

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/08/us/fentanyl-seized-south-texas-border-2021/index.html

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ntanyl-seizures-are-not-evidence-open-border/

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...-american-communities-quadruples-under-biden/

https://www.newsweek.com/gop-mocked...-fentanyl-seizures-border-under-biden-1725733


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If we are looking for solutions to combat drugs, using these strips have proved useful at the street level. They are free in Australia but then again Fentanyl supplies and use here is minimal to date. 11kg was seized last Feb, (via Canada), and the biggest seize before that was 30 grams

https://adf.org.au/insights/fentanyl-australian-illicit-drug/
Rapid fentanyl testing strips are used to detect the presence of fentanyl in a drug, not quantity or strength. Programs that provide rapid tests have been demonstrated to be highly accurate and easy to use in trials in the US.6,8 The majority of participants that took part in this trial reported positive changes in drug use behavior as a result, in that they decided not to consume drugs that tested positive for the presence of fentanyl.6,8 The introduction of testing strips may assist in reducing the unintended harms already witnessed in NSW.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ould-rapidly-emerge-as-a-problem-in-australia
 
The enforcement seizures at the border are increasing and the deaths in middle America are increasing, obviously more is getting produced and shipped.
OHIO OD.png

- ODH.ohio.gov​

So, back to my "leaky roof analogy": I would equate the border to the drywall (gypsum board) in your ceiling; still need to go up and fix the roof to stop the damage. I've never considered myself a "war monger" - and opposed more than one - but, seems a worthwhile endeavor in this circumstance.
 
jpdevol said:
The enforcement seizures at the border are increasing and the deaths in middle America are increasing, obviously more is getting produced and shipped.
View attachment 225438
- ODH.ohio.gov​

So, back to my "leaky roof analogy": I would equate the border to the drywall (gypsum board) in your ceiling; still need to go up and fix the roof to stop the damage. I've never considered myself a "war monger" - and opposed more than one - but, seems a worthwhile endeavor in this circumstance.
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Been watching this thread...
So if I've got this right Jeff, you're suggesting military action against Mexican drug cartels? I'll ignore the legalities for the moment and just ask "then what?"
Do poor farmers in Afghanistan still grow and harvest poppies? After 40+ yrs of war there, the opium trade is alive and well. When the goal is to put food on the table, the morality of it all becomes pretty murky.

Say we engage in military action against the cartels.... a bloody, costly engagement I'd guess. Then what? An occupation of
Mexico by US forces? Because that's what it would take. We could utterly destroy the cartels. Then what? What about the poor farmers... the average person of Los Jacales who knows that if he doesn't work, his kids go hungry. When standing lookout in the fields/laboratories is the only work, what else do you do? What becomes of them?
Poppies still grow, Peasants still turn them into opium. Afghanistan has stood under decades of war... Per the United Nations, Afghanistan accounted for about 85% of the worlds production of opium in 2020. How many American, English, Russian and Afghan lives were lost in the last 50yrs? What did it accomplish?

A cartel in Los Jacales gets wiped out. What happens then? The farmers kids still have to eat. Who will feed them? Us?
For a time perhaps. But we Americans are world famous for taking our eyes off the ball. You need look no further than Afghanistan and Iraq for proof of that.

From the ashes another cartel will rise. Unless we're willing to be an occupying force.... one that feeds the citizens, another will rise.

The poor farmer has to put food on the table for his kids. Think about that. It's as simple.... and as complex... as that.
 
nj1639 said:
This was presented today and is in line with the topic. Ignore the political title as it's kinda irrelevant to the body of the idea.
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So... use AI to generate "fake" images of dead bodies to A. own the libs, or B. invade Mexico. Brilliant!!!
That's my main problem with social media today.... even an absolute moron has a voice.
 
Jim said:
The poor farmer has to put food on the table for his kids. Think about that. It's as simple.... and as complex... as that.
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Methamphetamine and fentanyl are not grown on farms (as poppies and cocoa), but manufactured in chemical factories (or at least labs – question of scale). So, the farmers can do what they did before – grow pot for all I care.

I can’t hazard a guess at the billions of narco dollars that enter the Mexican economy today and the peasants are still poor, so disrupting that economic flow ain’t hurt ‘in poor people. The FTC can likely put a number on the formerly North American jobs that are now honest Mexican jobs. So, I guess I haven’t thought about what will become of the people.

No occupation, no “Nation Building”, no boots on the ground. No “hearts and minds” effort needed; I suspect the citizenry there is just fine; particularly without their geography ruled by ruthless criminal gangs and the government owned by them. They execute politicians and policemen that don’t toe-the-line. Can you imagine living in that world and trying to make a life?

Perhaps it is my fantasy – an imagination – I’d like to think the USA has the technology and the intelligence apparatuses to know exactly who are the majority of those criminal enterprises and, exactly where they and their infrastructure are located. Utilize cruise missiles, smart bombs, napalm or drones until they can no longer produce terror, there or here.

If not us, who? And if not now, when? – attributed to many.
 
jpdevol said:
Methamphetamine and fentanyl are not grown on farms (as poppies and cocoa), but manufactured in chemical factories (or at least labs – question of scale). So, the farmers can do what they did before – grow pot for all I care.

I can’t hazard a guess at the billions of narco dollars that enter the Mexican economy today and the peasants are still poor, so disrupting that economic flow ain’t hurt ‘in poor people. The FTC can likely put a number on the formerly North American jobs that are now honest Mexican jobs. So, I guess I haven’t thought about what will become of the people.

No occupation, no “Nation Building”, no boots on the ground. No “hearts and minds” effort needed; I suspect the citizenry there is just fine; particularly without their geography ruled by ruthless criminal gangs and the government owned by them. They execute politicians and policemen that don’t toe-the-line. Can you imagine living in that world and trying to make a life?

Perhaps it is my fantasy – an imagination – I’d like to think the USA has the technology and the intelligence apparatuses to know exactly who are the majority of those criminal enterprises and, exactly where they and their infrastructure are located. Utilize cruise missiles, smart bombs, napalm or drones until they can no longer produce terror, there or here.

If not us, who? And if not now, when? – attributed to many.
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I don't dispute that we can do it. My question (caution) is what then? Yes the cartels are largely ruthless thugs that aren't worth pissin' on.... but in big parts of Mexico, they pay the bills.... they keep the trains running and yes, put food on lot's of tables. Not saying that's good, bad or indifferent. It is what it is.
You'll be destroying an entrenched infrastructure.
What then?
 
Fair question that....
Kinda like Colin Powell's warning: what was it? .....If you break it...

I honestly don't know the answer and don't know if it's answerable. Chicago moved on from Capone.......yada, yada.:unsure:
 
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Jim said:
So... use AI to generate "fake" images of dead bodies to A. own the libs, or B. invade Mexico. Brilliant!!!
That's my main problem with social media today.... even an absolute moron has a voice.
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The number 300 a day is real, making it hit home with graphics, hey if it works....
He's not trying to hide the fact it's AI, just putting a realistic image to drive home what the statistic means.

"According to provisional data by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, more than 109,000 people died of a drug overdose in the 12-month period ending March 2022."
 
gggGary said:
.....phics, hey if it works....
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If it works we invade Mexico... and bonus, we get to "shame" the libs into going along. As an aside, there was a bunch of "libs" got shamed into invading Iraq. Careful what you wish for.

So... I'll put my question back out there, what next? What comes after the invasion?
After the cartels are disrupted/destroyed, then what? We give ourselves a year or two of a disrupted drug trade... and likely get world condemnation for it. Now what?
There's millions of addicts just in the US. Now what?
Does, China, Honduras.... insert country here.... step in to fill the void?
What's the plan? Do millions of addicts suddenly become not addicted?
The plan for Iraq was they would embrace democracy all by themselves. How's that workin'?

You can invade a country like Germany and have a Marshall plan for what comes after.
You can invade a country like Afghanistan and just let it fester... because you never had a "what comes after" plan.

Which way are we going this time?
 

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