277° rephase cost VS vibration reduction (2024)

[Bjorn]

I love my XS, and want to keep riding and tuning it for a long time. But I'm not a fan of the vibrations. I know it's an old bike and some say it's part of its character. But it not fun for taking the bike on a holiday. My engine has been checked and I need to get the crank rebuild. If I want to change the firing order, now would be the time.

I've red many posts on the 277° rephase, but I would like to know if it's worth the money (you need to spend in 2024) in order to reduce vibrations. I'm not looking for more power here.

The thing that is making me second guess the conversion is the price of the new camshaft and ignition. And the fact I just got a 360° vape ignition 2 years ago. Do love their product.

Cam would be €500
Vape 277° ignition is currently €815 ( they have increased their prices massively...)

Total €1315 for vibration reduction, But how much?

What's your experience with the rephase? Would you recommend it for reducing the vibes?

 

[jetmechmarty]

I love my XS, and want to keep riding and tuning it for a long time. But I'm not a fan of the vibrations. I know it's an old bike and some say it's part of its character. But it not fun for taking the bike on a holiday. My engine has been checked and I need to get the crank rebuild. If I want to change the firing order, now would be the time.

I've red many posts on the 277° rephase, but I would like to know if it's worth the money (you need to spend in 2024) in order to reduce vibrations. I'm not looking for more power here.

The thing that is making me second guess the conversion is the price of the new camshaft and ignition. And the fact I just got a 360° vape ignition 2 years ago. Do love their product.

Cam would be €500
Vape 277° ignition is currently €815 ( they have increased their prices massively...)

Total €1315 for vibration reduction, But how much?

What's your experience with the rephase? Would you recommend it for reducing the vibes?

If it was me, and my money, I wouldn’t do it. For what you spend, you may be able to buy a RE Interceptor and it’s already done.
It has been some time since I rode a 277 degree rephased bike, but as I recall, it took away from the low RPM for gains at high RPM. No free lunch. The 277 needs more RPM to go from stopped. More vibrations at low RPM and much smoother spinning fast. I remember it liked being pushed hard.
I just stay off the high speed roads and enjoy the backroads. I’m not afraid to travel on it, but I won’t take a highway trip with friends on new Harley Davidsons. 70+ is no fun. I’m not convinced the 277 mod would reverse that.

 

[dps650rider]

At low revs the vibs in a rephase varies a lot with engine load. Cruising on level road at low revs its pretty smooth and the vibs increase when climbing a hill. With a gearing change cruising at 75 or 80 isn't bad at all. On mine with 40/75 gearing the best sweet spot is from 40 to 55.

 

[WideAWAKE]

I would look into a 750 kit.

Smoothed out my bike quite a bit.

Left you at a highway cruising speed at a lower rpm.

Not sure what shipping would be but a kit can be had for 450usd.

 

[Jan_P]

Just putting it out here A crank in spec --Correct ignition setting And good Jetting .Bar end weights and thick handles
I no longer feel that vibrations is a problem.
Wont solve that longer rides .can be tiring. 300 km a day preferably less Depending on speed. most I have ridden 600

 

[46th Georgia]

If it was me, and my money, I wouldn’t do it. For what you spend, you may be able to buy a RE Interceptor and it’s already done.
It has been some time since I rode a 277 degree rephased bike, but as I recall, it took away from the low RPM for gains at high RPM. No free lunch. The 277 needs more RPM to go from stopped. More vibrations at low RPM and much smoother spinning fast. I remember it liked being pushed hard.
I just stay off the high speed roads and enjoy the backroads. I’m not afraid to travel on it, but I won’t take a highway trip with friends on new Harley Davidsons. 70+ is no fun. I’m not convinced the 277 mod would reverse that.

That's pretty much how the late Dick Russell @grizld1 felt about it.

 

[Charles13]

I say go for it and the 750 kit, the sound alone is worth the price, mine has all that, a set of high ratio primaries and a Cush drive rear hub, but alas it is not together yet so I can’t really talk. I have also heard mixed reviews of the mikes xs overdrive gear or I would be adding that also. I just had a custom 2-1 intake made by a fellow member here for a very special Keihin FCR pumper carb, he is also making me a custom 11/2” stainless exhaust system. My goal is also a low vibe comfortable, highway capable ride.

 

[toglhot]

You're forgetting the cost of rephasing the crank. That has to be split, turned and then pressed together again. If you haven't the appropriate tools, you'll have to put it into the shop to get it done for you. No idea on cost, but Labour isn't cheap.

Any 360 degree twin is going to vibrate, why not just buy a bike like a triumph, or RE, they are 270 degree twins.

 

[Signal]

Another cost is the cam and the ignition. My own bikes are rephased 750's but recently I rode a 650 with a standard crank and I quite liked it.

 

[Its been a long time]

Personally, I don't believe it to be worth spending probably more than the bike is worth to rephase the motor. I would be tempted to look for a bike or an engine that's already had the work done.

Of course, if money is no problem, anything can be done.

 

[Bjorn]

The engine is currently at Jerry Heiden, the crank needs to be rebuild anyways. He will do that. For the money it won't matter if I have it rebuild as a stock 360° or 277°.

This bike has a lot of emotional value. Its been a learning curve for about 12 years now, being a project bike. A lot of parts are made by me so I will probably never sell it. (You can find a long build topic here somewhere )

Its not like I'm spending 1300€ on a clapped out old XS.... But still it's a considerable amount of money. With a unclear reduction in vibes. It's mainly the high rpm vibes I would like to reduce.

I have another bike I can take Touring, but I want to be able to do long trips on the XS as well! That's why I'm interested in reducing the vibes.

 

[Bjorn]

 

[Bjorn]

Btw my 5th gear has started to develop pitting, so it will be replaced by that 5th overdrive. But I'm not expecting miracles from just that gear...

 

[Jan_P]

Putting this out here also
In the 70 ies i Saw some putting in a Lot of Money in Bikes that was worn from the start not getting far before a major breakdown
Sometimes perhaps they did the job themselves .
Especially likely to happen if at the end of the life cycle more power is taken out of the worn machine More power the designer did not design for
Sad faces walking in town when others was driving -- Whole driving seasons being lost and more money Typically money they did not have.

The factory Yamaha in this case is Experts Sometimes they save money but overall reasonably working solutions especially if they have made the bike for a long time and have had the opportunity to adjust and redesign

Can it be modified to be better yes but it is not so simple to beat the Experts .Some can do it with time adjustments money and patience.
Even here on the forum are Foks getting into trouble PMA Alternators and Weird ignitions.

Even if combustion engine has been around for many years hitting the Sweet spot with Fuel / Ignition / Air is difficult with a carburetor ..

Modify and it can be more difficult .Even impossible
You don't have Stock Air filters and Not Stock exhaust Well then it is likely something is not adjusted correctly at this point in time
Even if the Crank is Worn or twisted even. Wiring and Ignition .?

My view after that is Modifying an old motorcycle especially if tuning for more power Don't expect to travel longer than
7500 km Before con rods is sticking out or the next job has to be performed Having problems all the time reaching the 7500

 

[Charles13]

I love the upgrades, mine also has the r6 front end tell me about your exhaust. My engine mods are in the direction of smooth running, longevity and trouble free use. I have one of gggary’s low compression 750 kits, I’m going with megacycle’s smallest cam, a single carb, small exhaust and Vape’s maintenance free ignition system.

 

[Paul Sutton]

I like that blue paint on the XS.

What vibration is it you don't like? If it's just at the handlebars then weighting them can smooth that out a lot. If it's just the overall feel of the bike then try retarding the ignition a few degrees, or try higher octane fuel. Does your XS smooth out when loaded with camping gear? Often bikes are smoother when loaded e.g. riding 2 up.

If you just want the re-phase and it's a cost you can afford then go for it - Have fun.

 

[arcticXS]

Maybe not very helpful, but still related to the "rephase or not" discussion:
Balance factor. Now I do not know what balance factor the XS has, but I bet it is quite high, just like old British parallell twins. The "fore and aft" oscillations of the front fork/wheel of an XS idling while in the center stand is a clear indication of a high balance factor, most likely in the 70-85 percent range. I seriously doubt that this is ideal for a rephased/ crossplane twin. It may even be too low, as a 90 degree V-twin normally has a 100 percent balance factor (relative to ONE piston/ rod assembly), which then takes care of all first order vibrations. What complicates the issue further, for a rephased/ crossplane paralell twin is the rocking couple vibrations, which do not exist at all on a 360 twin. So someone with more detail knowledge of engine balancing really should contribute to this discussion.

 

[Its been a long time]

Maybe not very helpful, but still related to the "rephase or not" discussion:
Balance factor. Now I do not know what balance factor the XS has, but I bet it is quite high, just like old British parallell twins. The "fore and aft" oscillations of the front fork/wheel of an XS idling while in the center stand is a clear indication of a high balance factor, most likely in the 70-85 percent range. I seriously doubt that this is ideal for a rephased/ crossplane twin. It may even be too low, as a 90 degree V-twin normally has a 100 percent balance factor (relative to ONE piston/ rod assembly), which then takes care of all first order vibrations. What complicates the issue further, for a rephased/ crossplane paralell twin is the rocking couple vibrations, which do not exist at all on a 360 twin. So someone with more detail knowledge of engine balancing really should contribute to this discussion.

That's an interesting point. My experience of Guzzi twins is that they are rough at lower revs and smoother at higher revs. Pretty much the opposite of a 360 parallel twin. The information is probably out there somewhere with respect to the Enfield and other 270 degree twin engines that are common these days.

Having said that, the use of balance shafts is very common these days. My Bonneville T100 is a 360 degree twin but is turbine smooth due to the balance shaft.

 

[jetmechmarty]

Maybe not very helpful, but still related to the "rephase or not" discussion:
Balance factor. Now I do not know what balance factor the XS has, but I bet it is quite high, just like old British parallell twins. The "fore and aft" oscillations of the front fork/wheel of an XS idling while in the center stand is a clear indication of a high balance factor, most likely in the 70-85 percent range. I seriously doubt that this is ideal for a rephased/ crossplane twin. It may even be too low, as a 90 degree V-twin normally has a 100 percent balance factor (relative to ONE piston/ rod assembly), which then takes care of all first order vibrations. What complicates the issue further, for a rephased/ crossplane paralell twin is the rocking couple vibrations, which do not exist at all on a 360 twin. So someone with more detail knowledge of engine balancing really should contribute to this discussion.

To your point, I rode one that I thought wanted to rattle my teeth out at low RPM, and another that was very pleasing. The latter bike belongs to a member of this forum.

 

[650Skull]

I love my XS, and want to keep riding and tuning it for a long time. But I'm not a fan of the vibrations. I know it's an old bike and some say it's part of its character. But it not fun for taking the bike on a holiday. My engine has been checked and I need to get the crank rebuild. If I want to change the firing order, now would be the time.

I've red many posts on the 277° rephase, but I would like to know if it's worth the money (you need to spend in 2024) in order to reduce vibrations. I'm not looking for more power here.

The thing that is making me second guess the conversion is the price of the new camshaft and ignition. And the fact I just got a 360° vape ignition 2 years ago. Do love their product.

Cam would be €500
Vape 277° ignition is currently €815 ( they have increased their prices massively...)

Total €1315 for vibration reduction, But how much?

What's your experience with the rephase? Would you recommend it for reducing the vibes?

Well this has turned into an oil thread A lot of conflicting opinions, just about every one different...............another one.

Rode a 750, 277 rephase. Not that far, along a 60klh into an 80klh zone. Found the pick up was far superior to my 650, (it is a 750), and hit 100kph from the 60kph so surprisingly fast i didn't realize i was going so fast till i looked at the speedo, and i was a gear lower than i would be on the 650. Vibration was next to Zero.

The guy who's bike it is did a lot of 2 hour + riding. He finds the bike does vibrate enough to affect the hands after a couple of hours, but not anywhere near to the degree the 360 done.

Seems you have spent the money to have what you want so far. Not interested in selling the bike, intend to keep it, so money spent on the bike already, (rebuilt engine by Heiden), suits your situation and what type of bike is preferred.........is the extra really out of the realms of the budget. Sure the money could go towards another bike, but from what i am reading that is not what your after...............Is the 277, cost value for the extra 1300pd. Really hard to say. I think it is such a personal opinion due to reading that some who have done it miss the 360, XS650 vibe because they think it has taken away its charm, and others just love the feel and sound of the new bike..............the bike is apart, now is the time or forever hold your piece

277 rephase ignition manufacturers are getting hard to find. Whats out there seem to be either shit or expensive. Shame MikeXS contributed to the demise of the Pamco