Pipes and Stuff vs Vape Ignition For 277° Motor

[Dannyh82]

I'm thinking of changing my current Pipes and Stuff electronic ignition as number 2 cylinder (right on a rephased motor) fires 274° after the left, so it's actually 3° more advance than the left so I'm thinking it's maybe not that accurate and I cant change that discrepancy. The vape ignition looks a good system, more money but alot has gone into this build so I'm looking to get it as best can be. Any thoughts / experience on the 277° Vape ignition system?

 

[jpdevol]

I have one installed on a Hugh's rephase; very good quality components, works perfect, support via email good (Czech), install a bit "different", instructions not so good. IMO it's the best on the market.

 

[Dannyh82]

I have one installed on a Hugh's rephase; very good quality components, works perfect, support via email good (Czech), install a bit "different", instructions not so good. IMO it's the best on the market.

Hi thanks for the reply, did you find that your second cylinder fires at 277° after the first, so they are both at the same advance setting if that makes sense? Yes it looks a good kit, am I correct in saying they are effectively 2 ECU'S to control advance on the Vape kit? The pipes and Stuff is neat but it's just the second cylinder timing I was unsure about.

 

[jpdevol]

It's spot on. I just run the default advance curve and it works well. It does have 2 pick-ups, 2 ICU/ECU & two coils.

 

[Dannyh82]

It's spot on. I just run the default advance curve and it works well. It does have 2 pick-ups, 2 ICU/ECU & two coils.

Sounds a good option if this system I have is no good for me. What ohm are the coils? Also can you connect a laptop to the system through the ignition control units?

 

[jpdevol]

No provision for laptop. No published data on coil (and I never checked)

From VAPE instructions:
Give the newly installed system a chance to work, before you start to check and test values, or what is worse apply changes to it.
Our parts have been checked before delivery to you. You will not be able to check much anyway. At any rate do refrain from measuring the electronic components (such as ignition coil, regulator and advance unit). You risk severe damage to the inner electronics there. You will not get any tangible
results from the operation anyway. Bear in mind that also your carburetor, your spark plugs and spark plug sockets (even if completely new) might be the reason for malfunction. The general experience with our systems is that the carburetor will have to be re-adjusted to lower settings.
Should the system not start after assembly, first disconnect the blue (or blue/white) cut-off wire directly at the ignition coil (or in some cases advance unit) to eliminate any malfunction in the
cut-off circuitry. Check ground connections carefully, make sure there is a good electrical connection between frame and engine block.
In case of troubles, please consult our Knowledge Base first before you send off the material to us for checking

 

[gggGary]

Not 277 but some install info for the Vape as sold by Hoos
https://www.xs650.com/threads/installing-a-vape-all-in-one-charging-and-ignition-system.56346/

 

[Jim]

I'm thinking of changing my current Pipes and Stuff electronic ignition as number 2 cylinder (right on a rephased motor) fires 274° after the left, so it's actually 3° more advance than the left so I'm thinking it's maybe not that accurate and I cant change that discrepancy. The vape ignition looks a good system, more money but alot has gone into this build so I'm looking to get it as best can be. Any thoughts / experience on the 277° Vape ignition system?

Out of curiosity... did you re-verify that the 277° timing mark is in fact at 277°?
Don't mean to question your competency... but stranger things have happened.

 

[Dannyh82]

Out of curiosity... did you re-verify that the 277° timing mark is in fact at 277°?
Don't mean to question your competency... but stranger things have happened.

They are correct, I set all marks with my degree wheel etc, and have more than triple checked my work. When you look through the spark plug hole after the second ign (right side) has triggered you can see the piston is very slightly down (talking in mm here) compared to the left when on its firing stroke, confirming my advanced reading. Maybe when it's running, the 3° difference is lost, but my timing light says it is not. The only thing that would change this is the actual sensor being moved or made slightly less sensitive to delay it very slightly.

 

[gggGary]

They are correct, I set all marks with my degree wheel etc, and have more than triple checked my work. When you look through the spark plug hole after the second ign (right side) has triggered you can see the piston is very slightly down (talking in mm here) compared to the left when on its firing stroke, confirming my advanced reading. Maybe when it's running, the 3° difference is lost, but my timing light says it is not. The only thing that would change this is the actual sensor being moved or made slightly less sensitive to delay it very slightly.

Trying to sus out how it works one dual tower coil?
If so it's lost ignition, coil fires each time a magnet passes?

Looking at the plate it's pretty simple, have you talked to the maker about their timing? Small lathe project to make a new plate with better magnet locations? Or tap out one magnet, elongate hole epoxy it back in, "in time"?

 

[Dannyh82]

Trying to sus out how it works one dual tower coil?
If so it's lost ignition, coil fires each time a magnet passes?

Looking at the plate it's pretty simple, have you talked to the maker about their timing? Small lathe project to make a new plate with better magnet locations? Or tap out one magnet, elongate hole epoxy it back in, "in time"?

Separate coils and 2 sensors on board for each coil, as those magnets pass over each one it turns sensor on then off and that's when the coil/plug fires. I have, but have used all my 3 questions up I think lol so no reply anymore. What you suggest was also my thought, just want to make sure I'm not missing something that I don't understand but pretty sure I have it covered.

 

[gggGary]

OK with two sensors, coils you would have to move a sensor on the pc board. A pic of the board with the rotor out of the way?

 

[Dannyh82]

OK with two sensors, coils you would have to move a sensor on the pc board. A pic of the board with the rotor out of the way?

Yea I think so, almost like its a nats cock out.

 

[Signal]

My experience is with Power Dynamo which is the old name for the Vape system but the new owners may have changed the spec.
I have installed 2 and the gear is quality. The ignition system is sound but the charging system may cause you to think a bit more.

The output from the alternator is a bit on the small size so it would be a good idea to do a power budget to ensure it will do the job.
The technical info (and there is a lot of it, it is very well supported) on the Vape website says the charging system is not suitable for a lithium battery. I am not saying it wont work but they wont want to know if you have problems.
Both these could have implications further down the track.

Heiden Tuning do a 277 cam driven ignition as an alternative but you will need new coils as I understand the Vape coils are specials.

What is the Pipes and stuff full advance?

With regard to the ignition you have, is it possible to split the difference on the error so that each cylinder is 1.5 degrees off your ideal setting or set number one at 35 and run number two at 38.
35 Degrees is regarded as the sweet spot for these bikes but 38 degrees is ok.

I would run with it if you can set the ignition as above, you may not notice the difference and if it proves to be a problem then change the ignition.

I have read the results of a test done on these bikes with changing the full advance mark and from memory it was below 34 degrees before there was a significant power loss.

 

[Dannyh82]

My experience is with Power Dynamo which is the old name for the Vape system but the new owners may have changed the spec.
I have installed 2 and the gear is quality. The ignition system is sound but the charging system may cause you to think a bit more.

The output from the alternator is a bit on the small size so it would be a good idea to do a power budget to ensure it will do the job.
The technical info (and there is a lot of it, it is very well supported) on the Vape website says the charging system is not suitable for a lithium battery. I am not saying it wont work but they wont want to know if you have problems.
Both these could have implications further down the track.

Heiden Tuning do a 277 cam driven ignition as an alternative but you will need new coils as I understand the Vape coils are specials.

What is the Pipes and stuff full advance?

With regard to the ignition you have, is it possible to split the difference on the error so that each cylinder is 1.5 degrees off your ideal setting or set number one at 35 and run number two at 38.
35 Degrees is regarded as the sweet spot for these bikes but 38 degrees is ok.

I would run with it if you can set the ignition as above, you may not notice the difference and if it proves to be a problem then change the ignition.

I have read the results of a test done on these bikes with changing the full advance mark and from memory it was below 34 degrees before there was a significant power loss.

Thanks for the good info, this system is nice and compact and I had a special Titanium centre rod made that goes through the centre of the cam so ideally I would like to keep what I have.

Yes, as you have thought / suggested, I have set number 1 to 35° so number 2 fires at 38° during full advance. That was my only solution I could think of without getting into the can of wornns of adjusting the sensor position.

It may not make any difference when fully up and running, it seems to run just fine but when you know every single measurement on the motor I would of liked it to be abit closer.

 

[Signal]

I think it will run well and you wont notice anything. I wonder how many other bikes are out there running settings that are not what the rider thinks they are. Ignition timing, tappet clearance ,tyre pressure ... These bikes were built cheap and cheerful and it shows in places.

 

[Dannyh82]

I think it will run well and you wont notice anything. I wonder how many other bikes are out there running settings that are not what the rider thinks they are. Ignition timing, tappet clearance ,tyre pressure ... These bikes were built cheap and cheerful and it shows in places.

I imagine not many people check the number 2 when everything is set to number 1 such as cam and ignition. I will run it and my feeling is it will be fine as it's set now.

I was speaking to somebody the other day with a xs650 big bore engine in a classic racing sidecar and he said it was 76bhp at the rear! My engine is a simular spec. I don't expect that much but good to know, if my engine is high 60'S I will be happy.

 

[Signal]

I think it will be easily in the 70's.

 

[gggGary]

It looks like both sensors are cocked, in opposite directions.

A decent electronics tech could straighten them on the PC board?
Not sure if that would make things better or worse...

 

[Dannyh82]

It looks like both sensors are cocked, in opposite directions.
View attachment 231096
A decent electronics tech could straighten them on the PC board?
Not sure if that would make things better or worse...

Yea that was my observation also, that they are not in the lines perfectly. But as you mention, the question would be how much movement is worth 3°. I have access to electronic tech people where I work that could straighten them up aslong as they could also put them back if needed.

Also the way they need to go to make them straight would go with what needs to happen on the engine timing so it makes sense. I wouldn't be suprised if that improved the 3° discrepancy.