VAPE ignition Issues (and more)

[BaronJess]

Hi first post apologies for any issues i haven't used a forum in forever.

Ive just purchased an XS650 Herritage Special that was imported from the US and every fault i try to fix seems to multiply.
When i purchased it the previous owner had fitted VAPE electronic ignition, MikesXS headers and mufflers (2-2), XS pod filters and some knock off Mikuni carbs with 180 30 jets and it ran pretty meh, big bog at 2k rpm but would pull past it and the float kept flooding on 1 cylinder when not running so i pulled them off and fitted the original Vacuum mikuni carbs. It ran better and wouldnt bog but didnt want to pull past 4k rpm unless you backed off slightly and slowly rolled the throttle. So following that i tried new plugs and found the spark is abysmal, so bad that the old blackened plugs had better spark than the new ones and is nothing like the "fat blue spark" that Vape ignition describe. So next i swapped the old cracked coil with a new boxed one that came with the bike and now it runs even worse, it backfires when idling, often wont idle, has absolutely no power wouldn't pull the skin off a custard AND IT STILL WON'T REV.

I know what you're thinking "ah its the jets because of the pods and exhaust" yeah i would think that too IF it wasnt for the fact that when i swap the plug leads side to side, the backfiring also swaps sides with it which means to me it has intermittent spark.

The only thing i done before all this happened was add a killswitch for a roadworthy which the previous owner never connected, can these VAPE systems not work with a kill switch? (It just cuts the earth) I doubt its the killswitch since that should mean intermittent spark on both sides not just one.
My next check for tommorow is making sure the leads are properly seated in the coil spikes

Cheers Guys

 

[Signal]

I am not familiar with that ignition, I have heard of Wassel ignitions but was unaware they used Vape components.

What you have looks like a TCI type ignition that needs 12V to the coils and the ignition unit switches the return (like points).
I agree if you swap the leads and the fault transfers it is ignition.
You need a solid 12V at the colis, check all the connections and your battery condition.

In the Wassel install manual the kill switch is installed in the 12V supply to the coils not the return. They are not XS specific instructions but generic twin 4T instructions.
https://burtonbikebits.net/bbb/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/WW61495.pdf

 

[BaronJess]

I am not familiar with that ignition, I have heard of Wassel ignitions but was unaware they used Vape components.

What you have looks like a TCI type ignition that needs 12V to the coils and the ignition unit switches the return (like points).
I agree if you swap the leads and the fault transfers it is ignition.
You need a solid 12V at the colis, check all the connections and your battery condition.

In the Wassel install manual the kill switch is installed in the 12V supply to the coils not the return. They are not XS specific instructions but generic twin 4T instructions.
https://burtonbikebits.net/bbb/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/WW61495.pdf

Much appreciated mate ill look into those instructions you mentioned and what you've said. My old man mentioned the coil OHM's might be wrong for that setup since its electronic so i might try and find out if Wassel/Vape mention anywhere as to what OHM coil they require.

 

[Its been a long time]

Much appreciated mate ill look into those instructions you mentioned and what you've said. My old man mentioned the coil OHM's might be wrong for that setup since its electronic so i might try and find out if Wassel/Vape mention anywhere as to what OHM coil they require.

You could email these guys, see if they respond? Vape lists ignition coils as spare parts but unfortunately doesn't give the coil resistance spec. So you can't check simply what you have against what Vape needs. I would try an email to - vape@vape.cz

 

[BaronJess]

You could email these guys, see if they respond? Vape lists ignition coils as spare parts but unfortunately doesn't give the coil resistance spec. So you can't check simply what you have against what Vape needs. I would try an email to - vape@vape.cz

Yeah i was thinking that or Wassel since i cant find anything from VAPE with that points plate thing with Wassel written on it so im wondering if its off a Triumph or something

 

[Its been a long time]

Yeah i was thinking that or Wassel since i cant find anything from VAPE with that points plate thing with Wassel written on it so im wondering if its off a Triumph or something

In your shoes, I'd measure the primary resistance of the coil and ask Vape if it's in spec.

These people retail Wassel ignitions in the UK. There's no email address but there's a phone number and contact form - https://cwylde.co.uk/contact/

 

[BaronJess]

In your shoes, I'd measure the primary resistance of the coil and ask Vape if it's in spec.

These people retail Wassel ignitions in the UK. There's no email address but there's a phone number and contact form - https://cwylde.co.uk/contact/

Yes i think i may have to speak to both since ive tracked down the part number only to find this setup is originally intended for a Triumph or BSA which explains why i had trouble finding if it even existed but hopefully now i can find my Coil spec requirements
https://www.britishbikebits.com/wassell-vape-igntion-kit-triumph-bsa-norton

 

[Its been a long time]

Yes i think i may have to speak to both since ive tracked down the part number only to find this setup is originally intended for a Triumph or BSA which explains why i had trouble finding if it even existed but hopefully now i can find my Coil spec requirements
https://www.britishbikebits.com/wassell-vape-igntion-kit-triumph-bsa-norton

I see. I would try Vape first, see if they reply. British Bike Bits are just a reseller like C Wylde.

 

[WideAWAKE]

If you’re running a pleated cone or capped pod filter, they are known to cause running issues with standard cv carbs. An open uni foam filter is a better option.

I know your chasing ignition, just thought I’d throw that out there.

Does it run better with the pods off?

 

[Jan_P]

I start to sound as a demented parrot --but it is simple to do and solves many problems
Please measure charging Voltage across battery at different rpm
Lights on ---Se if there is over 14 V

 

[BaronJess]

I start to sound as a demented parrot --but it is simple to do and solves many problems
Please measure charging Voltage across battery at different rpm
Lights on ---Se if there is over 14 V

I get what you're implying, possible bad regulator letting the voltage get stupidly high. Its a good thought ill do that after i try a new coil since it turns out this new one that came with the bike is under spec for the electronic ignition

 

[BaronJess]

If you’re running a pleated cone or capped pod filter, they are known to cause running issues with standard cv carbs. An open uni foam filter is a better option.

I know your chasing ignition, just thought I’d throw that out there.

Does it run better with the pods off?

Runs garbage with filter, no filter, hand partially over the carb etc. I appreciate the thought and if it was just a stutter or a bog in the rev range id absolutely agree its probably the pods but right now what im chasing is ignition. But i will keep your suggestion in mind once ive adressed my weak spark fault (too small a coil i have found)

 

[Dunc]

I'm running a Wassel/Vape setup on my BSA A65. I'll have a look if I still have the installation pages. I'll also see if I can ID the ohms for the coils.
Where in Oz are you?

 

[Dunc]

3 - 4.5 OHMS listed. Check you're not running resistor plugs & caps together, either 5 OHM caps & non-R plugs or R plugs with no resistor caps.
Are you running 2 coils or a twin outlet?

 

[BaronJess]

3 - 4.5 OHMS listed. Check you're not running resistor plugs & caps together, either 5 OHM caps & non-R plugs or R plugs with no resistor caps.
Are you running 2 coils or a twin outlet?

I just ordered the one Wassel recommends for that ignition setup, its a single twin outlet coil. Im running BP7ES which were in it when i bought it. As for the caps i wouldn't have a clue if they are resistor or not, Wassel mentions being able to use either.

 

[Dunc]

Try a new set of plugs as they may be partially fouled

 

[BaronJess]

Try a new set of plugs as they may be partially fouled

been and done that haha, ive found its the coil at this point but i suspect it was overjetted too.

 

[Dunc]

Being a USA import Heritage Special it should run the 34mm CV carbs that use 132.5 main jet &42.5 pilot jet.
I'd try 137.5 main & 45 pilot & if you're using pod filters make sure the inside of the filter doesn't cover the openings in the bellmouth.

 

[BaronJess]

Being a USA import Heritage Special it should run the 34mm CV carbs that use 132.5 main jet &42.5 pilot jet.
I'd try 137.5 main & 45 pilot & if you're using pod filters make sure the inside of the filter doesn't cover the openings in the bellmouth.

It came with the knockoff Mikuni's fitted which i believe are meant to be VM34's from a visual inspection and they had 180-30's. I fitted the old Vacuum carbs though i don't know if they are the one's originally off the bike or a set from another bike since it came with a lot of random spares. It currently has the MikesXS tapered oval pods which i have just learned is not a good combo with CV carbs so once i get it fired up and certify the ignition system ill likely swap to unifoam filters. I have been able to confirm that the vacuum diaphragm is working perfectly from the tests i done which is great to see.
I'll check the bellmouth when i get the new coil, i can't do anything until i get that and find if its running poorly and blackening plugs because the spark sucks or if its also fueling related. I suspect its mostly spark related because it looks like an incomplete burn.