Miss November XS2 tribute

[5twins]

The worm adjusting screw and nut are just plain steel and will rust, as you've discovered. I liberally coat the threads with anti-seize. For grease, I use the heaviest stuff I've got. The low parts of the "swirl" on one half of the worm are the high parts on the other, so I pack the low sections on both parts full of grease like so .....

Screw the two parts together, wipe off the excess, and you're assured of a 100% greasing.

 

[Raymond]

Thanks. I don't have that red grease but as well as common-or-garden grease, I have molybdenum disulphide high-temp grease and copper grease. Think I'll go with the moly.

Have added a full advance mark on the alternator, also highlighted the more retarded end of the given range for, uhm, retarded spark timing:

 

[Paul Sutton]

IMHO it is worthwhile at some point to run the tank near empty and fill up with Super grade petrol. If the bike seems a lot smoother then stick to Super or consider retarding the timing slightly. But first things first, let's see the bike running with good charge voltage and no smoke.

 

[5twins]

Just be aware that when you retard the timing a few degrees at idle, it's going to do the same to the full advance timing. When you check it at full advance with a timing light, the rotor mark may not quite reach your full advance mark, but that's fine. This is actually what you're trying to accomplish by retarding the idle timing a little, trying to insure the timing won't go past the full advance mark and be over-advanced.

 

[5twins]

Now let's talk about the alternator brushes a little. The early and late alternator types use different brush sets. The early set contained two different brush types. The outer has a simple bracket with one mounting screw hole. The inner is much larger and complicated, having 3 mounting screw holes .....

Here's an early set installed with the connections labelled .....

A couple things of note here ..... first, the brush block has little notches on the outer side of each brush hole for the brush wire to pass through. The outer brush pictured above has it's wire routed incorrectly over the top. It should wrap around the left side so it runs in that little notch you can plainly see. The inner brush is correct with it's wire wrapping around the right side and running in the provided notch. Next, notice that all three of the inner brush screws ground it because they screw directly into the alternator casting. The black wire connected to the brush actually isn't sending a ground to it, it's picking one up and sending it back to the regulator. Here's an inside view where you can plainly see the grounded screws .....

Now, here's a late brush set. Both are the simple one screw mount type and are, in fact, the same as the early outer brush .....

Last thing I'll mention is the little insulator pad under the spring. It's not square, it's rectangular, and it only fits correctly one way. It's longer length should run up and down, not side to side. In the pic above, the top brush has it oriented correctly, the bottom one does not. Besides hanging out the sides of the bracket if not oriented correctly, it won't fit down into the brush block properly either. The brush block is notched out for the insulator pad to fit into it but only if you orient it properly (long side run up and down).

 

[Raymond]

Today, some good progress and one minor setback. Greased and fitted the clutch actuator, fitted l/h side case, footpegs, gear lever, kicker, rear brake lever - this time I remembered to hold the pivot while sliding the lever on. If you don't, the pivot slides in and loses its footing on the frame stop bracket. Put the engine in gear and tightened the alternator nut. Turned the engine and checked valve clearances on the l/h cylinder - they are a smidge wider than on the r/h which I checked last week. Didn't fiddle with them today.

Instead, decided to do the static timing for the Boyer Bransden. Need to put engine to Full Advance position - had to hold it steady with spanner on alt nut. Line up the white spot on a magnet on the rotor in the 'timing' housing with a hole in the sender plate. And tighten the nut at the 'advance' end of the timing rod. Asked for some help to tighten the nut. Which seemed to take too many turns of the spanner. By the time I walked round to see what was happening, found the bush recently fitted in the camshaft had been drawn along inside the tunnel. Blast.

A set back. But will find a work round. Possibly but unlikely buy another bush, two would probably do the job. More likely, find something to serve as a sleeve over the timing rod so that the nut can be tightened right down. Might draw a picture tomorrow but had enough for today.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Just as long as the rod is centred. The Boyer aluminium stepped spacer sits in the bush on the Right side of camshaft and the other end with magnetic rotor sits in the left bush.

Back in your Entry 920 you mentioned about one bush not going in all the way. Did you just drive it in all the way tightening the nut on the rotor shaft?

 

[GLJ]

Raymond
Here's a pic of a cam that came with points. The steel "seal" you can see. I doesn't show in the pic the bushing behind it. Couldn't get enough light on it. Both ends of the cam the same.

Here's a pic of my engine. It looks like when I tightened up the nut that the seal and bushing moved a little. You may need both the seal and bushing. I do not know if there is a step behind the bushing to stop further movement. The nut is tight.

 

[Raymond]

Gentlemen, thank you All.

They say a picture etc, so here is a rough sketch:

The main thing is that the hollow tunnel in the camshaft has two diameters.

When I fitted the bushes - labyrinth seals - I drove them flush with the end of the camshaft, as at the timing end in the sketch. Paul, my worry was that they would be so tight, they would only go part-way in and get stuck. But it was OK and they went where I wanted them. I assumed that, as the camshaft cooled down and the bushes warmed up, the bushes would be an interference fit and stay put.

But yesterday, as we would on the nut on the Boyer timing rod, the bush at the advance end was pulled inwards. I don't actually know if it has moved all the way, ie up against the shoulder where the tunnel narrows. Will try to have a wee feel with a wire hook or similar.

Obviously, when we stopped yesterday, the Boyer stepped spacer was up against the bush, then two washers, then the 13mm nut which had almost disappeared into the tunnel.

One solution would be to drive the bush back out. But I think that would be difficult and risks damage, at least to the bush. And cannot guarantee it wouldn't move again.

Or, could buy another labyrinth seal, or even two, and fill the wide parts of the tunnel. A good solution, but expensive.

If I had a lathe, I would turn up a simple bush. In fact, that's what I would have done to start with.

But today, I will have a look and see if there is anything in the garage that might fit over the Boyer 8mm threaded rod to take up some space. Stepped spacer, then this 'sleeve', then the washers and finally tighten the nut. That should be OK.

As long as I don't over-tighten and move the other bush too . . .

 

[Raymond]

Did not take very long.

Raided the old XS650 parts box. First thing that looked suitable was the dowel pins that fit between head and rocker cover. They were a bit too long, but could saw one in half.

Then I spotted the valve guide oil seals. Perfect. Modified one by cutting off the seal part - rubber and spring. So now the assembly will be:

That valve guide oil seal is not very strong. But the nut doesn't need to be wellied up very tight to hold the magnetic rotor in place.

Onwards and upwards.

 

[Paul Sutton]

If I understand the magnetic rotor is positioned correctly on the left-hand side but the stepped spacer has gone completely into the camshaft on the right along with perhaps half the nut.

All is well as long as:

1. The magnetic rotor and shaft are centered at both ends of camshaft.
2. The magnets when rotating do not contact the circuit board with the sensor coils.
3. The nut on the right does not have to be supertight, just firm.

Adding packing will be OK as long as the shaft stays centered and the nut is firm.

When you have assembled it all just post a photo. Then when you know everything is lined up correctly send me the dimensions of the spacer (Diameter and Thickness) and I will make a solid Aluminium one with 8mm bore which you can fit at some later date convenient to you. Easy and quick to do and I have scraps of metal available.

When you fit the circuit board do not tighten the two screws too much or the circuit board gets distorted and can contact the magnets. The following thread may be helpful:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/boyer-bransden-ignition-1981-yamaha-xs650-sh.48040/#post-484311

 

[Raymond]

Paul, your understanding is correct! The points you mention all valid. The shaft should now be centred and the magnets don't seem to foul the pickups.

You asked for pictures - first is how the 'timing' end now looks:




Second, the 'advance' end:




Third, sketch modified to show in yellow what has been added:




Yesterday, the hex nut was wound in till it was disappearing into the camshaft tunnel! The 'sleeve' keeps it clear, and as you say the nut just needs to be firm enough to keep the timing. I think this will be fine.

That is a very kind offer to make a spacer - I remember you re-faced the tappet adjusters for me! The dimensions are those of a valve guide oil seal minus the spring and lip which I cut off. But if this works, I'll leave it alone.

 

[Raymond]

Next problem, which I recall somebody mentioned but I failed to give proper attention, the breather arrangement.

Came to fit the air filters and found meself faced with this:




Those two black tubes from the filter boxes ain't gonna reach the breather. And if they did, only one would be able to attach.

Various options. 1 - find or buy a 'Y' connector. 2 - fit the breather off the old engine. 3 - seal off the filter box tubes and route a tube from the breather to a catch bottle or vent to atmosphere. 4 - go for filter pods and catch or vent the breather.

Option 1 would be easiest, especially in normal times when hardware or parts shops are open. Option 2 means raiding the old engine which I'm reluctant to do.

Would 3 give me further problems? Does much mess come out from the breather? Where would I put a catch bottle?

Might be a good time to swap to foam pods.

Have to have a think.

 

[5twins]

Why not just put a fender washer on the advance side of the Boyer rod? That would keep the nut from going into the end of the cam.

The original set-up was two bushings per side, one plain and one like you have with the grooves in it's I.D.

 

[Raymond]

5T, thank you for clarifying the original set up. I kinda guessed there was sommat missing. But because the bush was a tight fit, I thought it might be OK.

Why not just put a fender washer on the advance side of the Boyer rod? That would keep the nut from going into the end of the cam.

I don't think that would work. Boyer relies on their stepped spacer fitting into the camshaft bush to centre the rod. A washer would keep the hex nut from disappearing into the void but there wouldn't be anything holding the stepped spacer, so it could drop out of place?

Anyhoo, all fitted and tightened up. With the timing set statically, it should be close enough to start the engine and then fine-tune by strobe.

Meantime, felt the old hen could come down off her perch. This was the scene in the back yard:




Note garage has been beautifully repainted by my darling better half. Previously, doors & windows grey, gable panelling red - looks so much more garagy in dark green:




And inside, there's now all this space:




Enough for today. Got to go and fink about air boxes, filters and breathers.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Vent pipe: Run 1 pipe from the vent to 1 carburetor filter and cap off the other - I prefer symmetry. Swap with the other engine if the vents are interchangeable and view it as a temporary measure until you have time for a permanent solution....or buy a plastic Y connector and cut the legs shorter so it takes up less space:

Old fashioned route was to have one vent hose and tuck it down near the chain so it acts as a self-oiler.

 

[Raymond]

The 2F0 engine has not been run for a very long time. Bloke I bought it from had it maybe a decade and it was never in a bike during that time. He bought it to build a flat-tracker but that didn't happen. Before that it was imported from Canada but I have no information other than it was claimed to come from a sub-500 mile bike.

Have put a squirt of oil in each cylinder before turning the engine to do timing and so on.

Been thinking - always dangerous - what further steps should I take before start up?

Would taking the plugs out again and kicking the engine over say 100 times a) do more harm than good b) be good exercise but do nuffin for the engine c) be a useful way to prime the oil system before starting the engine?

Other suggestions? 'Sell me the engine and let me deal with it!' will not be given serious consideration.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Before 1st startup I remove the plugs and use the electric start to get the oil system primed. Without electric start still take the plugs out and then you can kick with ease and maybe it will also work because the oil pump is positive displacement.If you have an oiling can with the long reaching spout you could get some oil on the cams and lash screws. Last of all, be prepared to switch the engine off very quickly just in case a carb is stuck open or something else.

Note: There will be smoke from the oil in the cylinders. It will not burn off quickly and it may take about 10 - 20 miles before you can start to trust the colour your plugs are showing. When checking timing do not run the engine with the left side alternator cover off or you may experience the clutch push rod shooting out followed by oil. Just remove the round alternator viewing cover.

 

[Raymond]

42 Year-old Glamour Girl's Heart Transplant Hailed A Success!

After a difficult year including major surgery and a face-lift, the heart transplant operation has been successful - well, alright, the engine started and settled fairly quickly to an even tick-over.

As prep, removed plugs and kicked the engine over probably 40-50 times. Plugs back in, petrol on, and the first kick showed signs of life. A bit of throttle juggling and she started after a couple more kicks.

Side note - I don't know if the choke/mixture enrichener works, so I give the bike a little crack of throttle to get it started from cold. Worked with the 'old' engine and works with this one too.

Ran her for several minutes to warm up properly. Checked with multimeter - about 13.5 v at tickover, goes up to about 14.7 or 14.8 at a couple of thousand revs. Difficult to be precise when you're holding two pointers on the terminals and attending to the throttle at the same time . . .

Started her up a few more times, at least partly for the pleasure of hearing her run.

The ignition may be a little bit too advanced? The kick start showed signs of 'liveliness' - a tendency to kick back. Once I had warmed the bike up, thoughts turned to strobing, but it proved too awkward to fit the crocodile clips on the plug terminals. Will leave to another day when I can borrow a car battery, or perhaps use the Honda as a power source for the strobe.

The clutch plates must be a bit gummed up. Twice selected first and twice bike promptly stalled. Hardly surprising if the engine has been sitting for years?

Paul, thank you for good advice. Sounds like starting with l/h engine cover off, or r/h for that matter, would be a bit messy. There wasn't a lot of smoke, but there was an oily smell as it burned off the oil I had put in the cylinders.

Need to check the timing, need to free the clutch, need to find a solution for the breather.

But this has been a good day.

 

[5twins]

To free the clutch up, pull in the clutch lever and operate the kicker. If the clutch is stuck, the kicker will still turn the motor over with the clutch lever pulled in. When the clutch breaks free, the kicker will just push through without spinning the motor. So, just keep kicking it until that happens.

Congrats on the successful "transplant". Sounds like everything is working as it should including the charging system.