Charging system spontaneously not working

[TeeCat]

Guys, I started a new thread on this because mentioning it in my "blows main fuse" thread seems to be confusing some folks. I hope I have solved that problem with headlight bucket grommets, but now I have a new problem, virtually overnight; the charging system seems to have gone on vacation after a brief test ride yesterday.

I have been reading the many threads here on this problem, especially Curly's checks, but frankly he loses me about a third of the way in. All I did yesterday was rearrange the wire bundles from my new Mike's reg/rec in spiral loom, plugging and unplugging the terminals several times, and I don't see how that could have hurt anything. But everything with this bike seems so cryptic and coincidental.

At the moment I seem to be getting about 12v from the battery with the key, headlight and taillight on, according to my bar mounted voltmeter. But yesterday evening the bike had a hard time starting... unusual for her... and the meter was not going above 12.5v when revving... a brand new development.

I do know that, with the alternator cover off, if I go to put a socket on the crank nut, the mag field is strong enough to really yank the socket toward the nut pretty good, and really make it "stick". So, I have a field. Feels like pin the tail on the donkey, though.

Thoughts and ideas appreciated. This seems to have happened in a heartbeat, if that helps.

Thanks -

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Guys, I was reading something Pete said at the Garage. If I want to check my rotor, can I just unplug my reg/rec (both, though I have a solid state one) and leave the brushes installed? That would be easier. Does the key need to be on? And how/where do I probe for an accurate reading. I have a new digital meter. I want to figure this out but I suck at this stuff like nobody's business.

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Edit: Also, guys, if a battery is bad - put this one in last year but the bike does not get ridden much - can it "look" like a malfunctioning charging system? If the battery were going, wouldn't the charging numbers on the voltmeter still be 13 to 14.5 or so? I'd feel better about a dying battery than a suddenly malfunctioning charging system.

 

[inxs]

- battery must be good or youre pushing on the end of a string

 

[TeeCat]

inxs...

Thank you... I sort of thought as much.

Now, given what you are saying, before I start trying to chase a charging system problem (which possibly may not exist) around the shop, if I throw the battery on a charger and top it off, is it possible that I could restore normal numbers to the voltage gauge? That would at least tell me that it's the battery.

Again, I can see how that might be, because the bike just does not get ridden much.

Thanks muchly for your help!

TC

 

[gggGary]

It sure won't hurt, charge it up and do a simple load test say a bulb on it, watch voltage drop over 15 minutes. It certainly isn't rare for a one year old battery to puke.

 

[TeeCat]

It sure won't hurt, charge it up and do a simple load test say a bulb on it, watch voltage drop over 15 minutes. It certainly isn't rare for a one year old battery to puke.

Well, that makes me feel a little better. Weather permitting, I'll charge it up and look at the voltmeter (not following you about the load test/bulb, Gary). Might I expect to see normal voltmeter numbers after charging, and then a drop if it's the battery? I guess if I see normal numbers at first, then it's not the charging system?

Thanks, Gary.

 

[gggGary]

clip a taillight bulb or other small load on it see if it holds voltage for at least 10 minutes. It is not unusual for a bad battery to have OK voltage when fresh charged but not be able to support a load for any length of time. Lots of stores will do a battery load test for free.

 

[gggGary]

Just a "check the obvious" but have you removed all battery wires (including grounds) cleaned and reattached?

 

[bloodthirstysystem]

check your brushes. my feeler gauge would slap against the case but it wasn't charging. pulled the brushes and the outer brush was worn. not quite to the line but close. i resoldered it to make it longer, haha

brushes are very easy to check, unscrews the holders (3 for one brush, one for the other). pull them out and measure.

while you have them out test the rotor

 

[TeeCat]

Gary, the terminals seem okay at the battery. I'll have to double check the other end of the hot one... looked okay last time I looked. As to the main ground (cable) where it attaches to the frame, I recently had it off to attach a ground wire from the base of the new Mike's reg/rec to it (I think I did it right), but didn't clean it or its contact point at the frame. Guess I should.

How would I attach the bulb, Gary? And would this be with the bike running? Forgive my ignorance, but I can easily produce flames when working on electrical stuff. It's a gift.

Even if I can just see 14.5 on the gauge after charging, I'd be inclined to think it's the battery.

Blood... I put new brushes in last summer... almost no mileage since then. I suppose I could check the rotor after looking at the battery possibility.

 

[bloodthirstysystem]

you can load test with it in the bike. unplug the regulator, points, coils, one of the lights.. everything with power except for one light. turn on power for the light and watch it on the voltmeter. or take it out and run wires directly from a 12v light to the battery terminals. both pretty much the same thing..

also your ground needs to be contacting bare metal. very important. clean the ground wire and frame with solvent to get any oils off. you can ground the reg/rect to a different bolt somewhere else. to ensure that your battery ground is in good contact

 

[TeeCat]

I'll clean up the grounds to be sure, then. But the metal loop for the reg/rec that I made is between the main ground's loop and the nut that retains it all. So that should be okay for them to share a bolt, from what I read on the reg/rec instructions.

As to load testing, maybe I should just take it to a shop and get a definitive read.

 

[bloodthirstysystem]

you could.. doing it yourself should be fine. i charge mine to 12.5v, let it sit for a day or two and check it. it should hold 12.5v. then try running a light off it, i have a spare headlight or hook it up directly to my taillight.

if it can power a light without dropping for a few minutes and it can hold a charge for a full day or two it's good

 

[TeeCat]

Gary, what about testing it with a multi-meter before, after a charge? I read that setting the multi-meter to a range that includes 12 volts and touching the black probe to the neg battery terminal and the red one to the positive (engine off) is okay. Do you see that as safe/acceptable? I'm too young and cuddly to explode. Well... too young.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Sometimes its the last work you did on the bike that causes a new problem.

Are you sure you connected the wires correctly (following a diagram?) for the new Rec/Reg? Its also possible that as you unplugged and plugged in the connectors that you accidently broke off a brittle wire. The insulation could be holding it together but the wire may be broken. Check everything carefully.

If you still have your former Rec/Reg, and assuming it was still working, why not go back to that unit(s). Its possible the new unit has failed.

 

[TeeCat]

RG, the old units are gone, I think.

I'm positive that I connected everything properly. I checked and triple checked.

Also, this bike has literally been run for not more than a total of an hour... maybe a little more... in the last month or more. And I was turning the key on and off (headlight comes on with key) a lot trying to sort out that daggone main fuse issue.

I recall, as well, that when I was soldering in new connectors for the main fuse, I accidentally let go of the hot side and the connector fell against the chain guard. Sparks scared the hell out of me. I read that that I could have damaged the battery that way.

The system was charging the battery above 14v at 2:00 pm on Sunday. About half hour later, after riding, it was not. That evening... even less so. So, I'm not throwing any more money at this until I see what's up with that battery, you know?

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Update:

Well, guys, I put the battery on the charger overnight - it looked like it was partially discharged by the behavior of the LEDs - and this morning before work, I unplugged it because the charger looked like it was in maintenance mode. I let it sit all day.

This afternoon, my buddy was there while I fired it up. Just like normal... lit up on the first hot kick after two cold primers, and the volt meter was snapping to 14.5 when I cracked the throttle. I'm not sure about idle voltage because she never really came off the choke as I had other things to do.

But I'm thinking neglected battery. I won't run right out and buy a new one as I'm not sure whether this one is recoverable or toast... I'll ride a little locally this weekend and watch the gauge.

But the best logic I can produce seems to redeem/absolve the charging system. Think so? Hope I'm right.

TC

 

[XSLeo]

TeeCat, I have been following your thread here and at blowed the fuse again. You have sounded very unhappy about the way things are working out. By what you said a few posts back, I'm glad you haven't lost your sense of humor.
Yes, a weak battery has a direct effect on how the charging system works. Your rotor gets it current flow directly from the battery. Your regulator just turns the current on and off. A weak battery can't supply the current the rotor needs. The magnetism you feel at the rotor with a socket or feeler gauge is from the strength of the current through the rotor. Low battery voltge = low current = low magnetism = low alternator output.
As you have said you haven't been riding much. It can take 15 to 30 minutes of riding at high-way speeds to fully charge the battery. 15 minutes putting around the neighborhood just don't do it.
If you can't ride it much, keeping the battery tender on it will keep the battery up.
Before you do buy a new battery, either do a load test like as Blood mentioned or get it tested at someplace that sells batteries. Most parts stores have the equipment to test your battery.
I had to replace a battery after just a couple months. I left the key on , burnt out a coil and drained the battery. It wouldn't hold a charge after that. Charge to 12.5 volts, by the time I got it put back in the bike it was down to about 10 volts.
It was my fault this time.

 

[TeeCat]

Hi, Leo!

Your post made me feel a LOT better, both by clarifying what the gauge is actually reading, and by giving credence to my feeling that the charging system is okay, and that the neglected/weak battery was making it appear suspect. That makes sense.

I was losing it there, but I felt better when my buddy drooled on the fuel tank this afternoon. That restored my vigor.

I'm very optimistic that I have solved the fuse issue with grommets in the bucket, and I'll have to try to get some miles on the battery this weekend, or leave it on the charger. I trust that won't hurt the battery if it has a maintenance mode? I'm not sure this battery is toast yet. I might ask Advance Auto or the local bike shop if they load test.

Another issue though... I'm awakened in the middle of the night by really vivid, persistent fantasies of a hydraulic clutch...

TC