fredintoon

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Fredintoon I like your thinking. What is the function of the sleeve in the original setup? Does it add extra rigidity by transferring the loading/twisting across two bearings? Should the sleeve actually be fixed to the bolt shaft with Loctite so the bearing functions correctly in the original setup?
Edit: is the sleeve locked in place solely by the clamping effect of the frame when the bolt is torqued? That would explain the specification for how much the sleeve sticks out at each end. If so then the sleeve not rotating in the bearing is probably due to it being too short, damage to the faces on the frame, or the torque setting too low???

Hi Paul,
yup, putting that skinny throughbolt in tension to keep the bearing sleeve from turning is the design flaw.
When the throughbolt is done up tight enough to grip the bearing sleeve in the frame the replacement M16-ended bolt
is stressed so much that it yields and stretches. The stock M14-ended bolt snaps off like a carrot. Happened to my bike TWICE!
First time the broken bolt fell out in the street at highway speed and the swingarm moved to lock up the back wheel.
Luckily my son's dirt-riding experience let him keep the bike upright until it stopped.
Second time I noticed the replacement M14 stock bolt had broken and was partially out when I pushed the bike out of the garage.
My fix at that time was a throughbolt from a Suzuki. Same diameter & length, M16 end and solid, no drilled grease passage or
cross-drillings to weaken it. Did that beggar up until my eyes bulged and it's been OK ever since but I still don't really trust it.
The solid bar fix is the easiest way that I can think of to properly upgrade that pivot.
 

Paul Sutton

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Fredintoon, thank you. If I ever have to do this fix then I guess I'll need to include 5twins nipple modification to grease the bearing. I checked my swing arm on Thursday and all was fine so I shall not attempt to repair what ain't broke. But will add the nipple in Winter 2019 when I plan to paint the frame. I will tomorrow check my torque settings so I am not setting myself up for a bolt failure.

Thank you everyone and especially Yamadude for starting such an interesting thread with an excellent guide to changing the bronze bearings.
 

5twins

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Fred, how do you grease your bearings, or don't you bother? Personally, I've never had any issues with broken pivot bolts in my 12+ years of 650 ownership, never saw any on other local 650s either. I can see it happening if you use too much torque on the bolt but that's why I like the range given in the '77 torque chart. You only make it as tight as need be, and less is obviously better so you don't stress the bolt too much. And less than the single value 47 ft/lbs listed in many of the manuals often is enough.
 

Jim

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I can see it happening if you use too much torque on the bolt but that's why I like the range given in the '77 torque chart. You only make it as tight as need be, and less is obviously better so you don't stress the bolt too much. And less than the single value 47 ft/lbs listed in many of the manuals often is enough.
Yeah, 47 seems way too much to me too. I think I went about 30-32. As long as you shim the steel bushing for an interference fit in the frame, you don't really need any more than that.
 

fredintoon

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Fred, how do you grease your bearings, or don't you bother? Personally, I've never had any issues with broken pivot bolts in my 12+ years of 650 ownership, never saw any on other local 650s either. I can see it happening if you use too much torque on the bolt but that's why I like the range given in the '77 torque chart. You only make it as tight as need be, and less is obviously better so you don't stress the bolt too much. And less than the single value 47 ft/lbs listed in many of the manuals often is enough.

Hi 5T,
I grease 'em with a nipple in mid swingarm just like your photos in post #13. Which is an upgrade in itself as the grease
has a far less tortuous path to get to the sleeve/bushing interface where it needs to be.
BTW, I've owned my XS650 since 1986 and added that grease nipple when I fixed the bushings and replaced the broken throughbolt in 1989
but as you published first you are welcome to the grease nipple credit.
Lucky you to not have or have heard of a pivot bolt failure; perhaps they'd all been fixed before you bought an XS650 but trust me, they did happen.
The book's torque number is OK to keep the throughbolt tight but It takes a deal more torque to give enough bolt tension
to guarantee locking the bearing sleeve in place. What I reckon is that amount of tension is too much even for an M16
ended replacement to give so that it stretches over time & as it stretches HTF do you KNOW that sleeve ain't started turning, eh?
 
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gggGary

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Another way to ensure adequate lube to the bushing is to machine a groove into the steel bushing. That ensures there's always a path to the spiral groove. I seem to recall you have a lathe Paul?

View attachment 122565
Here' s how I did it.... comment 648
After youse guys posted these I remember doing something about the grease distribution also, Something got a groove so the grease would make it to the spiral. I have also installed one set of the all balls needle bearings but after some BMW (The company is ALWAYS Right) needle bearing failures, I don't believe in needle bearings in short travel situations like this.
 

JRP01

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Using carpentry tools on the TX. Checking clearance between bushings and tube. Worked pretty well to determine that I needed to shim or cut tube. Chose 2 .003 shims. So far so good. I know the ggg Gary told me not to use drywall screws or wire nuts on these but figured a clamp would be okay. Ha ha.
20180801_133526.jpg
 

Superjet

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So all this bronze bushing talk is making me wonder one thing. Back when I had my 77, i replaced the old stock bushing by heating up with a torch to unlock its grip from the swingarm. I did replace them with the needle bearing kit from XS 650 Direct. It was more expensive than the bronze bushings by 3 times. What are some thoughts on that kit? I never had any problems after that install and handled great no movement at all. I cannot remember how many miles I had racked up with the switch but all in all was good.
 

grizld1

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I used that kit for awhile too, years ago .The problem I had with it is that instead of the outer surface of the bushing turning against the thrust washer/grease seal on the end of the swingarm, the kit from Mike's uses needle thrust bearings. Problem: instructions say to apply no more than 25 ftlbs. of torque to the swingarm through bolt. If you apply much more you will damage the thrust bearings, no might or maybe about it. The way I ride now, I'd probably never notice a problem. When I had that setup I was younger and pitched 'em over hard from time to time, and I noticed increased frame flex. Bronze bushings and spec. torque cured it. The All Balls Racing needle bearing kit uses Teflon coated thrust washers which may serve better.
 

MaxPete

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After youse guys posted these I remember doing something about the grease distribution also, Something got a groove so the grease would make it to the spiral. I have also installed one set of the all balls needle bearings but after some BMW (The company is ALWAYS Right) needle bearing failures, I don't believe in needle bearings in short travel situations like this.

Absolutely - I’m with Gary on that point. For the swing arm, I like well-greased bronze bushings.

Jim’s circumferential grooves machined into the pivot sleeve on the same plane as those cross drilled holes are a good way to go IMO. That groove doesn’t have to be fancy or deep - just 0.015-0.020” (0.5 mm) x say....5-10 mm wide, would be sufficient to allow the grease to migrate around inside the bushing to get to those spiral grooves. If you don’t have a lathe available, you could even make the two grooves with a rounded file and then polish out the scratches with some emory cloth - that would do the job. Don’t worry about weakening the sleeve - it is loaded in compression by the big long bolt that goes through it.
 
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TwoManyXS1Bs

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Replacing the swingarm bushings on my XS1B.
25 years ago, I found the original 3-piece bushing setup to be somewhat sloppy, the sleeves quite rusted, and chewing into the plastic bushings. De-rusted the sleeves. Reamed the plastic bushings to cleaner, smoother surfaces. Flow welded brass on the sleeves, then turned them on the lathe to a light press fit into the bushings. Kept this greased with molybdenum disulfide grease.

On disassembly, found everything still tight.
Going to install the upgraded 1-piece bronze bushing kit anyway.

Old 3-piece bushing system in bottom half of this pic.
New 1-piece bushing system in upper half.
XS1B-SwingarmBushings-2019.jpg
 

XSLeo

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On the Bushings with spiral grooves, Could you use a Dremel tool with a tip that looks like a top hat with a thick cutting edge to reach in and cut a groove like the Stock bushing use, to link the spiral grooves?
I don't have a lathe. I doo have Dremel tools.
Leo
 

gggGary

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On the Bushings with spiral grooves, Could you use a Dremel tool with a tip that looks like a top hat with a thick cutting edge to reach in and cut a groove like the Stock bushing use, to link the spiral grooves?
I don't have a lathe. I doo have Dremel tools.
Leo
sounds workable to me, report back with pics LEO! Being bronze a fine circular blade or cutters, rather than abrasive that's going to quickly plug up? prolly use some mineral spirits or other thin "cutting oil" to keep chips flowing.
 

grizld1

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For a nonprecision job like grooving the inner bushing ("tube"), you don't need a lathe if you have a drill press. Put a washer on each end of the workpiece, run a bolt through and secure it with a nut, clamp the free end in the chuck, and apply the round file. Clean up with fine paper, etc.
 

grizld1

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Re. the through bolt, I suspect that too little radial torque causes at least some of the reported failures. The bolt ties the frame together at the swingarm pivot, and I suspect that over time inadequate clamping force could allow enough axial torsion to fatigue and break the bolt.
 
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TwoManyXS1Bs

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... Could you use a Dremel tool with a tip that looks like a top hat with a thick cutting edge to reach in and cut a groove like the Stock bushing use, to link the spiral grooves?

Good one, Leo. Some sort of router base attachment comes to mind.

Dremel router attachments do exist.
DremelRouterBase.jpg

Use the grease hole of the sleeve to set the cutter/stone height.
XS1B-SwingarmBushings-2019_02.jpg

Then, cut the appropriate groove into the bushing ID.
XS1B-SwingarmBushings-2019_03.jpg

I recall that Jim showed a grease groove inside his sleeve.

Post #648
http://www.xs650.com/threads/jims-1980-sg-restoration-and-yeah-a-few-mods.50545/page-33#post-540787

My sleeve doesn't have any internal grooves. And, it's rather rough in there.
XS1B-SwingarmBushings-2019_01.jpg

Looks like I'll need to groove its ID as well...
 
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