TCI Replacement 2020 It Works

Jim

Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
12,238
Reaction score
46,194
Points
813
Location
Kansas City Mo.
Just in from starting a rebuilt stock 650 motor using a Gonzo system. Started and ran well, advanced perfectly. This motor is a repower for our sidecar which is going to be sold (keeping the race motor as spare for new bike). Next Sunday is the have a go day where members of the public buy tickets and get to have a go at swinging.
The upshot is the bikes do a lot of laps and any weaknesses in the system will be exposed.
I will report back.
giphy (3).gif
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
"signals the lady in the Gonzo to tell the computer that the magnet went by"

Here is a closeup of the lady. Notice the left hand that receives the electric shock generated by the pickup coil that tells her the magnet is there. After the fire signal from the computer she manipulates the points with her right hand.
upload_2021-5-2_11-46-32.png
 

azman857

'80 XS 650SG Rider
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
2,671
Reaction score
4,745
Points
263
Location
Tucson AZ
Rudy, can you share with us any more info? Did you have to change the timing any when you installed the GN box? Have you noticed any change in performance.... power... milage... anything?

Ya, me too ?
I might have fine tuned the timing when I set it up. Power? No. Not really. It certainly did not go down! MPG went down around 5 mpg. I blame that on 2nd OS Pistons and carb jetting after the top end rebuild. No regrets doing it. Super easy peasy and very affordable to do. Thanks to Jim for showing the Pre 80 guys it can be added to Standard bikes.
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
2700 RPM RM-1 Pickup test with reluctor
CH1 the negative terminal on the coil.
CH2 blue across pickup



2700 RPM full advace
upload_2021-5-14_19-35-10.png

Note the PP Voltage on the pickup coil. That is the minimum voltage that the Gonzo will signal a fire in the coil

upload_2021-5-14_19-47-12.png
.


Notice the 20v PP ringing in the ignition coil.
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
My head kinda hurts trying to make any sense of this.

I've been trying different pickups and non magnetic reluctors. Should work. Works on millions of cars.

Several factors conspire against the 25 mm reluctor.

Speed past the coil on that small of a diameter.
Not much of a magnetic field for the pickup to generate a voltage from. ETC.

I'm sticking with magnets. Promising on the pickup.

There seems to be effects from size of the armature, impedance etc that I hope to investigate with my beta magnetic reluctor.

By changing the magnet configuration I can test for effects of pickup and magnet interaction with the Gonzo.
Screen Shot 2021-05-15 at 2.55.11 PM.png
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
The effect of magnetic field shape and strength on the the voltage rise and fall in the pickup coil.

Larger diameter armature, ie TCI vs RX/Banshee pickups means the tci more sensitive to the field lenghting the pickup signal.

upload_2021-5-15_17-37-22.png
 

Signal

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
Messages
1,047
Reaction score
3,053
Points
263
Location
New Zealand
Further to my post # 1179

The ignition worked well all day. If its going to break a sidecar will break it so that’s reassuring.

More good news for me and maybe some others, was looking through a Factory XS 850 manual and the ignition timing is given as 10 to 34 degrees. Hopefully the 850 ignition is good but if not there is an inexpensive alternative.
 

Jan_P

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
Messages
1,653
Reaction score
2,839
Points
263
Location
Sweden
2700 RPM RM-1 Pickup test with reluctor
CH1 the negative terminal on the coil.
CH2 blue across pickup



2700 RPM full advace
View attachment 191355
Note the PP Voltage on the pickup coil. That is the minimum voltage that the Gonzo will signal a fire in the coil

View attachment 191356.


Notice the 20v PP ringing in the ignition coil.

Watching the oscilloscope pictures
Correct me if I get this wrong
The blue is the pickup
And when it maxes the yellow goes low ..firing the plug
and then yellow begins to load the ignition coil shooting over ( 8 V ?? )
But at some of spikings it rings downwards very low immediately after overshoot.
Cant that negative spike try to fire the plug again directly after.
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
When the coil - is high the voltage is 12v - the resistance of the coil but the coil is ungrounded so no current flows. The the Gonzo grounds the coil - which allows current to flow to ground through the gonzo.. The yellow trace goes to 0 since it's grounded.

Just came in the house from working on the reluctor mount to spin for the for the RM-1 pickup and the RX135 pickup. It wobbles less now.
 

Pepijn

XS650 New Member
Messages
3
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
The Netherlands
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I've been following it over the last few days since I'm stuck in my '81 Heritage Special rebuild at dead pick up coils. I was kind of surprised I couldn't find any used ones online (< €200) or aftermarket replacements at a specialised shop nearby. To my knowledge the only option is to replace them with used ones or completely swap the ignition system.

I was looking at some DIY alternatives to the stock pickup coils:
  • Relay coil -> hard to extract
  • Pinball relay coils -> all is old stock and the highest one is 550 ohm
  • Wire wound inductors -> does this even work? Highest one gets to 235 ohm
  • DIY coil winding -> quite some work
  • Hoping for the best with some of those 500 ohm eBay pick up coils -> don't know if it fits and quite a resistance difference
I don't really understand what the requirements are for the pick up coils (why 700 ohm? Just for current limiting or is this some indication of the signal shape it generates?), and how I can build my own. It would be great if it is universal (both stock TCI and GN250) since I'm not sure my TCI is still functional.

What are my options?
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I've been following it over the last few days since I'm stuck in my '81 Heritage Special rebuild at dead pick up coils.

No Hijack. This is what this tread is built for. Welcome to the forum.

The stock TCI used a unique retard - advance pickup design. Haven't found any easy replacements.
Are both sides of the pickup dead.

@Jim is working on a replacement crank mounted pickup but none of the replacement pickups will work with the stock TCI Igniter . It will require a Gonzo system.

The last few my posts here are notes on the design of of a cam mounted pickup for the Gonzo which may be easier to fabricate.
 

Team Junk

XS650 Guru
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
5,214
Points
513
Location
Central Texas
Watching the oscilloscope pictures
Correct me if I get this wrong
The blue is the pickup
And when it maxes the yellow goes low ..firing the plug
and then yellow begins to load the ignition coil shooting over ( 8 V ?? )
But at some of spikings it rings downwards very low immediately after overshoot.
Cant that negative spike try to fire the plug again directly after.


The Gonzo grounds the coils so current flows to ground. When the Gonzo ungrounds the plug fires.
I know counterintuitive.
 

Pepijn

XS650 New Member
Messages
3
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Location
The Netherlands
No Hijack. This is what this tread is built for. Welcome to the forum.

The stock TCI used a unique retard - advance pickup design. Haven't found any easy replacements.
Are both sides of the pickup dead.

@Jim is working on a replacement crank mounted pickup but none of the replacement pickups will work with the stock TCI Igniter . It will require a Gonzo system.

The last few my posts here are notes on the design of of a cam mounted pickup for the Gonzo which may be easier to fabricate.

Jup, both orange/black and grey/black are infinite resistance. The metal bracket is pretty corroded as well. After determining it was completely dead I had the idea of grinding off the case, only to find out it's not hollow but filled with plastic.

It now looks like my best option is to try to exactly replicate the coils' size, core, # of turns, AWG, etc. since I just read the advance amount is based on the length (time-wise) of the positive-to-negative swing of the pickup coil. That's a lot of work without any guarantees. Hmm...
 

Jim

Beyond the edge is the unknown. Here be Dragons
Top Contributor
XS650.com Supporter
Messages
12,238
Reaction score
46,194
Points
813
Location
Kansas City Mo.
I was kind of surprised I couldn't find any used ones online (< €200) or aftermarket replacements at a specialised shop nearby. To my knowledge the only option is to replace them with used ones or completely swap the ignition system.
I've got one that tests good.... with the connector cut off. I'll let you have it for much less than that. PM me if you're interested. At least that will get you back on the road until we sort out the conversion.


PXL_20210517_202019502.jpg
 
Top