NONclow
Confirmed Laquer Breather
Just a thought, clutch hub/basket spline condition(grooves)?
-
Enjoy XS650.com? Consider making a donation to help support the site.
XS650.com receives a small share of sales from some links on this page, but direct donations have a much greater impact on keeping this site going.
about to lose my mind....clutch slipping - maybe
- Thread starter aaronrkelly
- Start date
-
- Tags
- clutch
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
OK....bike re-assembled with all "different" transmission parts (ie the aforementioned transmission with 13K verifiable miles on it) but I left the Mikes 5th gear setup inside. It all looked good. Cycled it on the bench....looked great.....but then so did the old setup before we took it apart.
Get it all back together.....and Im off.
6 @#$(&%! miles.....a whole 6 miles......and same problem.
Well shiiiiiiiiit.
So my mechanic has an old XS650 engine in the corner - older setup with decompression lever....we pull the entire clutch basket and swap it out. In all its glory, old springs, o-rings between the clutch plates....the whole works and stick it in my bike.
I went 115 miles today......not a single problem.
Im going to thrash it a couple days or weeks....and then swap in all the new parts I had previously bought to attempt to correct the problem. No since letting all those good parts just set.
Vesrah clutch plates
new steels
new springs
.....but for now Im enjoying a working bike (so far so good).
Get it all back together.....and Im off.
6 @#$(&%! miles.....a whole 6 miles......and same problem.
Well shiiiiiiiiit.
So my mechanic has an old XS650 engine in the corner - older setup with decompression lever....we pull the entire clutch basket and swap it out. In all its glory, old springs, o-rings between the clutch plates....the whole works and stick it in my bike.
I went 115 miles today......not a single problem.
Im going to thrash it a couple days or weeks....and then swap in all the new parts I had previously bought to attempt to correct the problem. No since letting all those good parts just set.
Vesrah clutch plates
new steels
new springs
.....but for now Im enjoying a working bike (so far so good).
Aaron, unbelieveable, extraordinary! You may have discovered a new syndrome! Keep us posted.
Trying to imagine some kind of ring-gear/clutch-basket disconnect. The cushion springs do have a history of going bad, but you guys would've caught that, and that acts differently anyway. Would be really helpful if you could post some crisp/clear pics of both sides if the basket, and the hub as well...
(Hub/spline disconnect?)
Trying to imagine some kind of ring-gear/clutch-basket disconnect. The cushion springs do have a history of going bad, but you guys would've caught that, and that acts differently anyway. Would be really helpful if you could post some crisp/clear pics of both sides if the basket, and the hub as well...
(Hub/spline disconnect?)
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
So I put about 500+ miles on that complete old clutch setup.......and it did "slip".....but it was normal clutch slipping when you were wailing on it in the higher RPMS before you shift......so not anything like my "problem".
I tore it down and put my new clutch discs, steels, bearing, springs etc.......in that old basket.....stuck it back in there.
That was 2 weeks ago and Ive been riding it everywhere every chance I get.
ZERO problems.
Must be something wrong with that basket.....but man you cant see anything out of order.....just kinda boggles my noggin.
......but for now Im considering it fixed - as fixed as an XS650 can ever be
I tore it down and put my new clutch discs, steels, bearing, springs etc.......in that old basket.....stuck it back in there.
That was 2 weeks ago and Ive been riding it everywhere every chance I get.
ZERO problems.
Must be something wrong with that basket.....but man you cant see anything out of order.....just kinda boggles my noggin.
......but for now Im considering it fixed - as fixed as an XS650 can ever be
itrguy
XS650 Addict
Looks like i need to find a new basket as well!!!
On the basket where the plates ride it wears grooves in the basket. Looks kinda like a washboard. The steel plates are stamped out and this leaves one side slightly rounded the other a sharp burr. If you assemble the clutch with the sharp edge in this can catch on the ridges in the basket. This catching holds the clutch from closing completely.
When I redid my clutch I took the steel plates and sanded this sharp edge to a slightly rounded edge. I also sanded the contact surfaces to remove any discoloration and rough them up a bit.
I found a set of NOS Kibble White 70 lb springs. I bought Forodo fibers. Now with a well lubed cable and worm I get no slippage with the 750 kitted engine and can still pull the clutch with two fingers.
Leo
When I redid my clutch I took the steel plates and sanded this sharp edge to a slightly rounded edge. I also sanded the contact surfaces to remove any discoloration and rough them up a bit.
I found a set of NOS Kibble White 70 lb springs. I bought Forodo fibers. Now with a well lubed cable and worm I get no slippage with the 750 kitted engine and can still pull the clutch with two fingers.
Leo
XSleo, Glad you brought up the "washboard grooves" condition problem. When I got my 'spare parts' XS 20 years ago, the clutch did that typical disengage 'hang-up', difficult to find neutral while stopped issue. Found significant washboarding. Restacked the plates so the fibres rode on the washboard 'tops'. I'm a sedate rider, don't push it, so don't demand much of the clutch. The clutch engages/disengages fine now.
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
Yeah I looked that over really close one of many times I had mine apart.....I didnt have any grooves, more what I'd call "discoloring" from some very slight wear.....not enough to even catch a fingernail on......I cleaned it up anyway.....didnt make any difference.
That clutch basket honestly keeps me up at night.....Ive never been able NOT to figure something out and that MOFO baffles mes.
Wanna sell it?
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
I have the same sleepless nights, and curiosity.
This IS a pretty crappy way to get used parts.
Okay, instead of selling it, how about round-robin the thing to the mechanics here?
Could be the start of a new game show...
This IS a pretty crappy way to get used parts.
Okay, instead of selling it, how about round-robin the thing to the mechanics here?
Could be the start of a new game show...
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
ok.....so now after a thousand miles, give or take....today it does it.....5 times in a row, within about 2 or 3 miles.
About 40 miles before I adjusted the clutch at the lever to take out excessive slack ( I could feel to much resistance when shiftting gears).
Is it possible this thing is just THAT sensitive.
After it did it 3 times I reached up and added a little slack to the clutch cable.....it did it a couple more times and I added more slack. (I did this while going down the road at 55 mph.....so no gear changes took place).
It then stopped.
Now did it stop because it was related to the clutch adjustment......or does it have squat to do with it.....afterall its so intermittent you cant pin point it.
Just seems all was well....hell Id ran the piss out of this thing.....not a hint of a problem.
Previous to this Id done so many clutch adjustments with no result I had ruled it out.....hmmm.
About 40 miles before I adjusted the clutch at the lever to take out excessive slack ( I could feel to much resistance when shiftting gears).
Is it possible this thing is just THAT sensitive.
After it did it 3 times I reached up and added a little slack to the clutch cable.....it did it a couple more times and I added more slack. (I did this while going down the road at 55 mph.....so no gear changes took place).
It then stopped.
Now did it stop because it was related to the clutch adjustment......or does it have squat to do with it.....afterall its so intermittent you cant pin point it.
Just seems all was well....hell Id ran the piss out of this thing.....not a hint of a problem.
Previous to this Id done so many clutch adjustments with no result I had ruled it out.....hmmm.
NONclow
Confirmed Laquer Breather
What about the worm assembly? Function? Need cleaning and lube? How does the pushrod feel when sliding it by hand through the cases, jerky or smooth?
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
The worm was flawless......Ive taken it apart and relubed it every time - never looks dirty or indicated binding.
Pushrod feels smooth.....its a one piece.
Pushrod feels smooth.....its a one piece.
NONclow
Confirmed Laquer Breather
Damn! Helluva prob man. I understand all the inspection and adjustments you've done, but just for shits & giggles, with all this slipping have you checked the thickness of the steel and fiber plates to see if they are thinning down, glazed, warped? Also is it worse when cold or warm?
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
Ive checked the specs....all new steel and fibers - all is good there.
Happens so random....when the problem first came around it'd happen in as few as 6 miles......and sometimes it'd take 60 miles or so.
That was many attempts at repair ago (since then Ive changed the basket, steels and fibers, pushrod (single instead of 2 piece), bearing, springs).......now it showed its ugly head after somewhere between 750 to 1000 miles......give or take (guessing by tankfuls since I dont run an odometer).
Today I rode 100 miles (no problems)......then 40 miles into the return trip (after setting for 2 hours) it happened. Seems to not matter much on temperature.
Happens so random....when the problem first came around it'd happen in as few as 6 miles......and sometimes it'd take 60 miles or so.
That was many attempts at repair ago (since then Ive changed the basket, steels and fibers, pushrod (single instead of 2 piece), bearing, springs).......now it showed its ugly head after somewhere between 750 to 1000 miles......give or take (guessing by tankfuls since I dont run an odometer).
Today I rode 100 miles (no problems)......then 40 miles into the return trip (after setting for 2 hours) it happened. Seems to not matter much on temperature.
Two things:
1 - I hereby withdraw my offer for the suspect clutchbasket!
2 - Now to think about the bizarre, just thinking out loud, food for thought...
Somewhere here is a good rear-facing-forward cross-section pictorial of the clutch, transmission shaft and pushrod. Viewing this and focused on the pushrod components. Perhaps something is occurring to cause the pressure plate to move as though the clutch lever was pulled. This transmission shaft is spinning a couple thou, enuff to centrifugily throw off-center something that's inside it. What if the mushroom-shaft face was bent, what if the matching face of the pressure plate was equally distorted, and the 2 occasionally jammed/askew, enough to press the plate outward. On my XS1Bs, total pressure plate travel is about .080" (2mm). Could the pushrod mechanisms expand .020-.040" (.5-1mm) to uncouple the clutch? (this will take several hundred pounds) Does the clutch lever freeplay change during this? Is the left side cover's worm out of alignment with the trans shaft center? Is the left side cover distorting somehow? Is there a wallow/wear zone inside the trans shaft where the ballbearing is located? (Different shaft installed, probably not) Was the clutch boss (center hub) swapped as well? Is the total stack-up thickness of the plates within spec? If on the thin side, what would happen if an extra steel was added? What is the spacing between the trans shaft right end and the fitted pressure plate center face? Is that greater than the mushroom face? What if I can't get this outta my head?
(end of thought quagmire)
1 - I hereby withdraw my offer for the suspect clutchbasket!
2 - Now to think about the bizarre, just thinking out loud, food for thought...
Somewhere here is a good rear-facing-forward cross-section pictorial of the clutch, transmission shaft and pushrod. Viewing this and focused on the pushrod components. Perhaps something is occurring to cause the pressure plate to move as though the clutch lever was pulled. This transmission shaft is spinning a couple thou, enuff to centrifugily throw off-center something that's inside it. What if the mushroom-shaft face was bent, what if the matching face of the pressure plate was equally distorted, and the 2 occasionally jammed/askew, enough to press the plate outward. On my XS1Bs, total pressure plate travel is about .080" (2mm). Could the pushrod mechanisms expand .020-.040" (.5-1mm) to uncouple the clutch? (this will take several hundred pounds) Does the clutch lever freeplay change during this? Is the left side cover's worm out of alignment with the trans shaft center? Is the left side cover distorting somehow? Is there a wallow/wear zone inside the trans shaft where the ballbearing is located? (Different shaft installed, probably not) Was the clutch boss (center hub) swapped as well? Is the total stack-up thickness of the plates within spec? If on the thin side, what would happen if an extra steel was added? What is the spacing between the trans shaft right end and the fitted pressure plate center face? Is that greater than the mushroom face? What if I can't get this outta my head?
(end of thought quagmire)
NONclow
Confirmed Laquer Breather
Bear with me....... have you tried comparing all the parts in both clutches, and since they both seem to have the same prob,.......for testing purposes....... take the best parts you can out of both and make one set and try it, half the steel and fiber from each, and maybe the basket from one, and the other pressure plate.
Like TwoMany said, what about the mushroom shaft face, and possibly center hub?
Like TwoMany said, what about the mushroom shaft face, and possibly center hub?
??? Rear view camera! Now, THAT would be an interesting thread...
NONclow
Confirmed Laquer Breather
I'll get some better pics tomorrow, but you can see the cam (black box) just above the "60" on the lic plate. I have a man/auto switch, auto is constant for city, in manual press horn button for view, otherwise it's off....... and yes the middle bike is dads `47 Chief
