You might want to watch this, but you've been warned...

[Word Man]

You're probably right. I never had that much experience off-road, only as a kid. Don't drive much anymore. Motocross riders would definitely relate to this. People do freeze in panic situations though, sometimes for the worse.

You are correct, people do freeze in panic situations. The question is, why?

The answer is, in a panic situation, you do what you have planned to do. The more you practice what you plan, the better the odds you will do what you planned. Plan and practice nothing, and that is likely what you will do when the smelly stuff hits the air circulation device.

Frankly, I do not think this guy had out ridden his motorcycle. I think that, if he had grabbed a handful of counter-steer, he likely would have made it back into his own lane before he collided with the truck. Further, if he had begun to counter-steer, and thus lean the bike more, during the turn, he likely would not have encroached on the other lane, or, even if he did, he would have done so for a very short distance.

Here is a prime example on not understanding how to ride, coupled perhaps with a bit of target fixation.

 

[gggGary]

RG have you TRIED the technique?

I long looked up to a pilot I knew. He was in his mid 70's when I met him, been everywhere, done everything. If it happened in flying he had experienced it. He was VERY opinionated. and brooked no idle comments that were not "by the book". But and this is huge; If you explained your new idea, procedure, technique, backed it up with facts or documentation, He'd say; Damn it, you are right, embrace the new information and add it to his flying technique. Alas, well into his 80's he solo flew a twin engine that had gotten to be beyond his abilities, reaction time, awareness envelope. I miss him.

 

[gggGary]

Word man, ouch! Ran that through several times. Hard to say for sure but looks like he might have touched a peg then spun slid the rear a bit crossing the stripe when he went wide, that kind of upset his line.

And yes target fixation is real. You will go where you look.
I am hardly a perfect rider, my right wrist lacks control, and I swap bikes a lot. While on a Road Star 1600 cruiser this spring I got into a corner kind of hot for that bike. But I had been practicing my counter steer and looking IN techniques. The old pig had kind of limited cornering clearance so I looked IN, eased the throttle slightly, shifted my weight in, and pushed to tighten my line. There was plenty of available cornering. Heck I could have gone faster.... Had I looked OUT, grabbed brake, steered out, it would have gone differently.

 

[retiredgentleman]

You are correct, people do freeze in panic situations. The question is, why?

The answer is, in a panic situation, you do what you have planned to do. The more you practice what you plan, the better the odds you will do what you planned. Plan and practice nothing, and that is likely what you will do when the smelly stuff hits the air circulation device.

Frankly, I do not think this guy had out ridden his motorcycle. I think that, if he had grabbed a handful of counter-steer, he likely would have made it back into his own lane before he collided with the truck. Further, if he had begun to counter-steer, and thus lean the bike more, during the turn, he likely would not have encroached on the other lane, or, even if he did, he would have done so for a very short distance.

Here is a prime example on not understanding how to ride, coupled perhaps with a bit of target fixation.

Another idiot bike driver. That guy has no knowledge as to how to merge with traffic. He accelerated in the merge lane as if there were no traffic in the lanes he wanted to join. Not only that, he didn't stay in the merge lane; he cut directly into heavy traffic.

He should have slowly matched his speed to the speed of the cars he wanted to join, while still in the merge lane, neither of which he did. His licence should be pulled for a year, and forced to take driving instruction.

That's not target fixation, that's stupidity fixation. Another biker that's lucky to be alive, as the cars in the traffic could easily have hit him.

Edit: So lets hear how countersteering could have saved this idiot from running into the side of the vehicle.

 

[retiredgentleman]

RG have you TRIED the technique?

I long looked up to a pilot I knew. He was in his mid 70's when I met him, been everywhere, done everything. If it happened in flying he had experienced it. He was VERY opinionated. and brooked no idle comments that were not "by the book". But and this is huge; If you explained your new idea, procedure, technique, backed it up with facts or documentation, He'd say; Damn it, you are right, embrace the new information and add it to his flying technique. Alas, well into his 80's he solo flew a twin engine that had gotten to be beyond his, abilities, reaction time, awareness envelope. I miss him.

No, I have not. I drive in a manner that does not put me into dangerous situations.

 

[Word Man]

Edit: So lets hear how countersteering could have saved this idiot from running into the side of the vehicle.

Simple, he had yet to outride the bike. That is, the bike had way more cornering ability than he had yet utilized. If he had turned right (counter-steered by pulling on the left bar/pushing on the right bar), he would have stayed in the merge lane. Instead, he thought you leaned a motorcycle to steer it, only his rate of acceleration made him unable to lean the bike anymore than he already had.

I've seen this many times, and nearly experienced the bad part of the equation once.

One was a guy flying low who, with 8 feet of clean roadway and another 10-12 feet of clean shoulder, ran into the right rear corner of a truck stopped to make a left turn (two lane road, one lane each direction). He had plenty of time to see and react (he could see the stopped vehicle a good 250 yards before impact), but he didn't know to counter-steer. Well, at least we "think" he didn't know how to counter-steer. We couldn't ask him as his heart and most of his lungs were on the outside of the huge split running from his crotch to her neck (caused by the right rear corner of the pick up.

Another was my own experience. I was riding my Triumph when I encountered an off-camber turn into which I had headed at a higher rate of speed than my abilities. Fortunately, as I headed for the side of the road, I remembered to counter-steer. The bike healed over way more than I thought possible and made the turn. After the turn, I pulled over and sat on the side of the road for a bit.

Most of us are not really capable of riding our bikes to their limits. We think we push them pretty hard (because we are riding at the edge of our own limits), but in reality, the bike has more to give.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

You are correct, people do freeze in panic situations. The question is, why?

The answer is, in a panic situation, you do what you have planned to do. The more you practice what you plan, the better the odds you will do what you planned. Plan and practice nothing, and that is likely what you will do when the smelly stuff hits the air circulation device...

This may be of interest:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31120

 

[retiredgentleman]

"If he had turned right (counter-steered by pulling on the left bar/pushing on the right bar), he would have stayed in the merge lane."

I can't agree with that statement, because I don't believe it. His bike was driven quickly out of the merge lane, while accelerating, and no amount of fancy countersteering would have kept the bike in the merge lane. Its simply the worst example of merging I have ever seen..............bad driving and too much speed. Text book example of idiot driving. It should be mandatory viewing at all motorcycle courses.

 

[gggGary]

No, I have not. I drive in a manner that does not put me into dangerous situations.

Oddly that's the same logic used by the no front brake guys.

I want to live where the idiots are ALL kept off the roads I ride on. Oops there goes my license.

 

[Word Man]

I can't agree with that statement, because I don't believe it.

If there is more "lean" available, there is still more cornering possible. He wasn't close to decking anything, therefore he likely could have made the correction.

But he (and many others) believe you lean a motorcycle to steer it. They are wrong.

 

[Downeaster]

I don't know where I picked up the counter steering technique (it certainly wasn't at any riding course, as I've never taken one) but I use it for virtually ALL direction changes.

Additionally, I practice it regularly. The road through the Schoodic section of Acadia National Park (about 5 miles from my house) is one way, two lanes, with a painted center line. When traffic conditions permit (ie...none) and the road surface is clear and dry, I slalom in and out of the dashed center line by counter steering. The speed limit is 35 and that's fast enough to be challenging given the spacing of the lines.

If I'm feeling particularly froggy and competent, I'll do it around curves, tho slower.

I firmly believe that regularly practicing avoidance maneuvers is key to survival, especially for us old farts whose reaction times aren't what they once were.

RG, I respect your experience, wisdom and advice, but I think you're missing an opportunity here.

 

[nj1639]

It's interesting how some things that were considered gospel back in the day, in regards to training for the motorcycle endorsement, have changed through the years.

Some of the things I recall being taught back in the early '70's in South Jersey weren't even discussed here in Hoosierland when I returned to riding......probably due to practical experience being injected into the training through groups like A.B.A.T.E.......and new things were added.

Counter steering was a new one for me, and after learning about it I realized that I'd been doing it all along though not as often as I could be doing it and actually backwards- as in pulling the opposite side of the bar to direction instead of pushing. Same result though now I push. Yeah, back in the day it was all about the lean.

 

[jetmechmarty]

I live in a mountainous area where the roads are all treacherous. (read fun) If I just ride my bike hard without thinking about what I'm doing, I get to the limit very quickly. If I concentrate and pay close attention to countersteering I am much smoother and faster. My lines can get very tight.

I fully agree. Don't be an idiot on public highways. It's also better than a very good idea to practice countersteering. Push right to turn right.

 

[Royboy]

No question that he came into that curve way too hot and riding like a jerk...but he would have made it if, as others have pointed out, he had counter steered and looked where he needed to go rather than where he was heading. This is a maneuver I practice religiously every time I ride. It's not instinctive, it must be practiced.

roy

 

[peanut]

I have played the video over many times and I hope that in this instance I would have chosen to steer the bike straight across the front of the truck and crash into the undergrowth. i have a feeling I would have instinctly tried to recover as the rider did... hoping that everything will work out somehow.

You only have a split second to choose what you do which is hardly enough to consider the consequences of your actions and weigh the odds so ones choice is likely to be mostly instinct influenced with experience.

The reason I would definitely have chosen the undergrowth is this.....
If counter-steering fails you would definitely slide under the front of the truck for certain!
He is probably going too fast to attempt a counter-steer manoever with any certainty of it being succesful.

If you steer across the front of the truck with plenty of throttle you stand an excellent chance of clearing the front of the truck and you're still upright with some degree of control over the bike and hence the outcome of where you end up.

Lastly I can see that its highly likely that its going to be a soft landing in the undergrowth which if I'm lucky might scrub off some speed before I hit something.

In my mind there is no contest ..its the undergrowth for me .

 

[jetmechmarty]

I had a situation like this last fall. I was in the hill country of South Carolina. I was enjoying a spirited ride on an old bike. I'm briskly moving around a mostly blind left hander. As I approached my apex, here comes a tractor trailer hauling logs and he's straddling the double yellow. I was about to get pasted.

Two things about this. First, I wasn't going so fast that I wasn't able to change my line. Second, I know that I consciously pushed with my right arm to get across my lane.

In the end, it shook me up, but I stayed on the pavement and missed the truck by more than inches.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Some very good points by everyone.

Gary said "Have you tried this technique"? I said no, because I've never consciously "pushed right to go right". But guess what, that's how I steer my bike, and that's how I've always steered my bikes. I never knew that there was a name for how to steer a bike, its just something you do sub-consciously, because you have to in order to go around corners.

Once you go over about 30 km/hr or 20 mph, its the only way to initiate a turn. Its very subtle, so many lads including myself, don't know they are doing countersteering, but we are all doing it. The countersteer causes the initial lean, and the resulting lean causes the bike to turn in the desired direction.

Next time I'm out riding. I will try to make a conscious effort to do the "push right, go right".

Having said that, as both videos show, entering corners with too much speed (for your individual ability), will lead to disaster.

 

[wrenchjohns]

the first time i tried to consciously counter steer (2008) i shot around the corner much quicker than planned. i now practice some at slow speed in controlled area and continue normal riding as i did previously. this has been a good plan for 30,000 miles. conscious counter steer has successfully been reserved for troublesome times when drastic directional changes have been required. i also look for the least painful landing zone, in the same 30,000 miles this less desirable option has (thank God) not been used.
john

 

[gggGary]

Thanks for all the great replies, discussion! Peanut FWIW drivers ed hammers on all to NEVER attempt to steer left of oncoming traffic. (in drive backwards countries like the US) Their most likely reaction is to go right if and when they see you. This is usually mentioned in relation to the oncoming traffic coming over the centerline into your lane but probably applies to any situation. In that video by the end, the truck has it's right front tire fully over the fog line.

 

[peanut]

Thanks for all the great replies, discussion! Peanut FWIW drivers ed hammers on all to NEVER attempt to steer left of oncoming traffic. (in drive backwards countries like the US) Their most likely reaction is to go right if and when they see you. This is usually mentioned in relation to the oncoming traffic coming over the centerline into your lane but probably applies to any situation. In that video by the end, the truck has it's right front tire fully over the fog line.

yes I can see the logic of that thinking and I hadn't considered the evasive action by the truck driver to be honest but then all things considered ......In this situation I would still favour the odds of going across the front of the truck.

That is an incredibly heavy truck with considerably momentum .
If you were to attempt a radical steering manoever at that speed I would imagine that the truck would go ploughing on straight for a couple of seconds carried by its huge momentum. By that time my feeling is you would have cleared the front of the truck


Each and every situation is different. No two situations are ever the same .I believe we should each make our own judgement at the time, based on our assessment of the situation

You only get one shot and in my experience you need to make the right choice based on the individual circumstances not a method or rule.