Clutch issues new build engine

[vsop-dk]

Hi you all... ive been struggeling all day at the garage, trying to adjust the clutch on my new rebuild and rephased engine.

Ive followed Carbons youtube vid end to end, and it still gives me problems finding not only neutral, but allso the switch in gears isnt going smoothe.

If the bike starts moving when clutch is in and in first gear, what to do to eliminate that?

allso when bike is off, should I be able to go through all gears?

Im experiencing that I can put it in first gear but cant mve it up in neutral...

any pointers as where to look?? much appreciated, just wanna drive sun is out fist time in months

 

[5twins]

With the bike off, it will be difficult, maybe impossible, to shift through all the gears. They need to be spinning. You might accomplish it if you turn the rear wheel by hand as you work the shift lever.

If the bike creeps in 1st gear, clutch pulled in, the adjustment isn't tight enough. The plates are still partially engaged and dragging. Hard to find neutral can also be the too loose adjustment. Well, harder than it normally is anyway. These bikes are noted for neutral finding problems.

I'm not sure what Carbon's vid shows but many of us set the worm gear adjusting screw a bit tighter than the manual calls for, about 1/8 turn backed out after touching instead of 1/4 turn.

 

[vsop-dk]

5twins, thanks for the response, ill be testing it Again tomorrow. Guess it allso has something to say wether engine is Cold or hot when doing the adjustment.!

Mine were not cold neither super hot when I worked at it.

Thanks for the clearifications about the gear shifts through when the bike were off... Glad to have those responses, as some would seem obvious it can be a deadend trying to troubleshoot if you dont know if its right or wrong behavior.

Carbons vid shows clutch with a small freeplay and screw 1/8 turn back.. Ive tried it but need to look further into it... Actually had the adjustment right, just after breakin startup it changed gradually and I had to readjust and now it seems pretty har finding the sweet spot.

 

[5twins]

I set mine cold and pretty snug. There is lots of expansion when things get hot because the clutch is located clear on the other side of the bike, away from the cable connection and worm gear. If you set it and set it tight when it's hot, it may be too tight when cold and parts have shrunk back to normal size. The clutch could slip then.

Yes, it can take some fooling around to find just the right adjustment setting. Of all this bike's short comings, the clutch is one I haven't fully sorted yet. I still have hard-to-find neutral when hot and the shifting is rather stiff compared to most other bikes I've owned. Maybe just part of the bike's personality, huh?

 

[vsop-dk]

5twins, so by snug you mean tighter than just touching the rod?

I had a xs650 22 years ago and remember the clutch and finding neutral when riding were a matter of light toes and kind of trick the clutch into it

Guess there isnt a bike the same ill Work on it Cold from now on adjusting this...

 

[5twins]

I do the about 1/8 turn out down at the push rod but then remove pretty much all the remaining cable freeplay with the adjuster up on the hand lever. As things heat up and expand, freeplay develops up at the lever. You may have read how some guys set theirs looser but then need to re-adjust when riding and things get hot. I don't need to do that. This one setting (virtually no cable freeplay when cold) covers all temps.

The problem with these clutches, as I see it anyway, is barely enough plate separation. Adjusted too loose or when more freeplay develops as things heat up, the plate separation becomes even less.

 

[vsop-dk]

sweet to know about the freeplay... ill remember that tomorrow... my screw is showing 4-5 threads kind of remember there should only be perhaps 1-2 showing... could the rod going through the engine be stopped at some point?

its one rod and not two and a ball.

 

[vsop-dk]

I've been working on my clutch trying to adjust it accordingly.

So what I've done is I've changed clutch lever because I need some more cable length behind the case. It helped a little but not as much as I wanted...

I've then push/pulled the lever while turning the nut in slowly without force until it stopped and then I unscrew it 1/8 of a turn and tightened it up.

The handlebar lever I gave just a quarter turn for the slack.

BUT there are two issues remaining.

1 I'm having a real hard time finding neutral when in motion.

2 the cable length inside the case is still not long enough I think. Should the spring be loose or tight when cable is connected?

Would be great seeing an example of a cable that is correct mounted to the worm drive.

I've borrowed a image as a reference.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hey, vsop-dk. If you enjoy reading, and would like to know more about the clutch worm setups, try grinding through these threads. Warning, it could take a full day to read it all.

These are all about the XS650 clutch actuator experiments:

Clutch worm actuator experiment and tidbits
Clutch worm mod testing
Clutch pushrod experiment and tidbits
Clutch cable experiment and tidbits
Clutch worm rotation gauge

Clutch worm depth dialgauge-post90
Clutch worm depth dialgauge-post91
Clutch worm depth dialgauge-post92

 

[vsop-dk]

Hey TwoManyXS1Bs really kind of you to sum up alot of readings ill dig into it. Actually ive been reading alot allready and have tried and tested alot... Guess ill have to find my own way as no two engines are the same...

Just about the clutch cable length and the neutral... I got to fix those.

im just interested going out riding flawlessly

Thanks for your response.

Ps. been through alot of the threads allready and im pretty impressed your truly into this clutch if you had an extra pair of the clutch lever, cable and Worm drive I would happily purchase them from you.

 

[retiredgentleman]

You asked for a picture of the worm gear/cable set-up. I was just installing my left engine cover to-day, so I took a pic for you.

This is what works well for me. I drilled another hole in the actuating arm, which gives greater plate separation. My original stock hole was 1 25/32" or 1.781". I changed that to 1 14/32" or 1.438".

The original plate separtion was about 0.079". Using the shorter arm, I now get 0.097". The extra 0.018" makes a considerable difference.

For about 6 or 7 years I thought it was necessary to re-adjust the clutch, at the lever, after the engine got hot. 5twins had always said he just left his at one setting. Well, finally last year I was able to find the perfect adjustment at the lever. I don't make any adjustment now for cold or hot engine. It works so well, that now, I'm afraid to touch the adjustment wheel at the lever, for fear I may never find that sweet spot again.

As 5twins said, the clutch design (worm gear) is poor, in that there is barely enough plate separtion, so any thing you can do to maximize the push rod stroke, really helps.

I have no problem finding neutral now.

 

[vsop-dk]

retiredgentleman, thats exactly what I were looking for. How perfect os that.

Just I need to find out what cable and lever you use, cause I can say for a fact that my cable length isnt near where yours at inside the case. Mine stretches the spring perhaps 2cm....

I had to push/pull lever to adjust the adjusting screw all way into the rod and then from there unscrew it 1/8 turn and the adjust at the lever is allmost at zero, perhaps a quarter turn out.

The clutch is okay not hard neither smothe and cant locate neutral....

Im interested replicating your setup, just need the details thanks again.

 

[retiredgentleman]

retiredgentleman, thats exactly what I were looking for. How perfect os that.

Just I need to find out what cable and lever you use, cause I can say for a fact that my cable length isnt near where yours at inside the case. Mine stretches the spring perhaps 2cm....

I had to push/pull lever to adjust the adjusting screw all way into the rod and then from there unscrew it 1/8 turn and the adjust at the lever is allmost at zero, perhaps a quarter turn out.

The clutch is okay not hard neither smothe and cant locate neutral....

Im interested replicating your setup, just need the details thanks again.

I bought my clutch cable from www.650central.com back in 2009. Its called the
E-Z Pull Clutch cable, part # FCEN 26-3350, 53 1/4" long. Cost $19.95.
He sells 3 different lengths, so you should do a measurement on your own bike to be sure you order the correct length.

Its a superior cable compared to what Mikesxs sells. Mikesxs cable is only 0.080" thick while the E-Z Pull cable is 0.098" thick. You will be happy with the E-Z Pull cable.

I use the stock factory clutch lever that was on the bike when I bought it.

I have replaced the 2 short push rods and ball bearing, with the 1 piece long steel rod that is sold by places such as Mikesxs.

I also dimple the end of the long pushrod and the worm screw. That helps the ballbearing stay alined and less potential side motion that could wear the pushrod bushing and oil seal.

 

[vsop-dk]

I see, ill get onto it... actually I have a motion pro, but believe it must be for another engine its a xs650s cable just looked up the order... Perhaps thats why mine cable isnt long enough and stretch the spring at the Worm drive.

Ill look into getting one of the E-Z Pull cables.

Thanks and have a great day.

 

[vsop-dk]

Believe today, after following all recomendations and good advise from alot of very skilled xs650 enthusiasts I managed to settle and adjust the lutch to maybe 98% accuracy and neutral is where i lightly have to tap second or first a tiny bit and it will drop right in.

I remember this from my first xs650 and it Works fine. Clutch is allso great, its not one finger as TwoManyXS1Bs (thats way too cool) but a two finger pull and it feels great

Thanks everyone for the assistance happy riding.