WELSH FLAT TRACK REVIVAL

[Jim]

I will try tomorrow Jim's suggestion to test the Reg/Rec as shown in his video. I guess the rotor /stator gets energized via the brushes with Ignition on?

Yes Adam, yours appears to be a "type A" charging system. That means the brown wire (the top one in your pic) to the inner brush should be hot (12v) from the key. The green wire (outside brush) is a regulated ground from the regulator. My video on testing the reg/rec only tests the rectifier (rec) side of the reg/rec, so there's no need to do that at this time. Your problem is with the regulator side of things. So here's how I'd proceed....

1. look at the brushes and verify the length. Don't recall what it's supposed to be, but there's a line molded into the brushes at the minimum length mark. Just make sure they're longer than that. Give us some pics if you're not sure. If they're good, proceed to step 2. If not, put some good brushes in there and see if you get magnetism.

2. Use your meter and see if you have 12v at the brown (wire) brush with the key turned on. If you do, proceed to step 3. If you don't, we need to figure out where you're losing it.

3. Disconnect the reg/rec and turn the key on. Take a jumper wire (or pliers... anything metal) and touch it to the green (wire) brush and put it to ground. Provided you have power at the brown brush, grounding the other (green) should energize the rotor. If it does, you'll feel the magnetism on the nut holding the rotor on.

Let us know what you get and we'll proceed accordingly.

 

[Jim]

For test #3... here's how I do it. Take a pair of needle nose pliers, touch one side to the screw of the green wire terminal. Touch the other point to the case of the stator. A quick and easy way to ground the brush.

 

[Jan_P]

Yes Sir this is on track .. But remembering the CSF rule Cheapest Simplest First
Perhaps already done Apologize if so
Check the fuse so it sits properly ..and is not open + the charging circuit connectors there is a large one on my 80 coming from the stator
Last time One pin on that had jumped the barb and pushing the connector together pushed that pin forward not making a solid connection.
Is it a new ish regulator combo that has worked up to now. ?

 

[Adamc]

For test #3... here's how I do it. Take a pair of needle nose pliers, touch one side to the screw of the green wire terminal. Touch the other point to the case of the stator. A quick and easy way to ground the brush.



View attachment 241072

Cheers Jim, will try these test on Monday; and report back.

 

[Adamc]

Yes Sir this is on track .. But remembering the CSF rule Cheapest Simplest First
Perhaps already done Apologize if so
Check the fuse so it sits properly ..and is not open + the charging circuit connectors there is a large one on my 80 coming from the stator
Last time One pin on that had jumped the barb and pushing the connector together pushed that pin forward not making a solid connection.
Is it a new ish regulator combo that has worked up to now. ?

Thanks Jan, I checked and changed the fuse just as a precaution.

 

[Jan_P]

Yes Sir I like your positive active cooperating attitude spreading good vibes. Wish I had more of that myself.
So If anyone will get help, it is You

 

[Adamc]

Yes Adam, yours appears to be a "type A" charging system. That means the brown wire (the top one in your pic) to the inner brush should be hot (12v) from the key. The green wire (outside brush) is a regulated ground from the regulator. My video on testing the reg/rec only tests the rectifier (rec) side of the reg/rec, so there's no need to do that at this time. Your problem is with the regulator side of things. So here's how I'd proceed....

1. look at the brushes and verify the length. Don't recall what it's supposed to be, but there's a line molded into the brushes at the minimum length mark. Just make sure they're longer than that. Give us some pics if you're not sure. If they're good, proceed to step 2. If not, put some good brushes in there and see if you get magnetism.

2. Use your meter and see if you have 12v at the brown (wire) brush with the key turned on. If you do, proceed to step 3. If you don't, we need to figure out where you're losing it.

3. Disconnect the reg/rec and turn the key on. Take a jumper wire (or pliers... anything metal) and touch it to the green (wire) brush and put it to ground. Provided you have power at the brown brush, grounding the other (green) should energize the rotor. If it does, you'll feel the magnetism on the nut holding the rotor on.

Let us know what you get and we'll proceed accordingly.

Hi @Jim (And all other contributors).

Brushes look to be be in good shape with plenty of material to contact slip rings.

Battery has full power and is brand new.
Key on there is no voltage at the brush brown wire connection whatsoever.

Traced brown wire which goes back directly to the REG/REC (as per original loom when I removed it).
Of course that doesn't mean it was charging correctly when in its PO state; I never tested it.

If the brown brush wire should be 12v hot when iggy key on; should it be coming out of the REG/REC; or should it be spliced direct from iggy key then to REG/RE and Brown wire Brush? Looking at the diagrams below I think I have found my issue; but will wait for your assessment.

I used Motogadget wire diagram for the majority of the new loom:

And Revival M-Unit diagram:

Mixed it with this 1980 one I got off the Tech section:
Red X's are the components I cut out of the circuit loom.

Cheers as always
Ads.

 

[Jim]

or should it be spliced direct from iggy key then to REG/RE and Brown wire Brush?

Yes... correct.
Looks like all the M-unit stuff shows a PMA charging system, whereas your bike uses the factory (energized rotor) one. Where the brown wire goes into the reg/rec you can just splice there and run that to the brush.

 

[Adamc]

Yes... correct.
Looks like all the M-unit stuff shows a PMA charging system, whereas your bike uses the factory (energized rotor) one. Where the brown wire goes into the reg/rec you can just splice there and run that to the brush.


View attachment 241264

Thanks for confirming my suspicions Jim.
I'm still a learning auto-electrical novice really....

 

[Adamc]

Charging Woes.
With the help of @Jim, @Jan_P, @Raymond etc….
I reviewed the numerous wiring diagrams I used and discovered my error.
I missed a 5cm length of wire from the Iggy key on feed to the stator brown wire to energise the rotor. All because the M-Unit / Revival wiring diagrams don’t feature TCI set up.
Bugger me!
More rectification and tests tomorrow.
ACBUILD

 

[Adamc]

CHARGING WOES
Spent the afternoon rewiring the charging system (again!).
I will test tomorrow and update on my build thread.
Anon.
ACBUILD

 

[Adamc]

CHARGING WOES CONTINUE:
So following @Jim confirmation of the missing 12v hot to the brushes at the stator; I remedied by rewiring a lot of the charging loom.
I also improved the battery protection with a 20 amp inline fuse (instead of the 40 amp recommended by Motogadget).
Installation in pictures is temporary; and will be cleaned up when charging issue is resolved.

So we now have key on 12v going to the brown brush wire, as required & tested with the meter.
I reinstalled the stator to the rotor. Checked for energized magnetism, but still nothing.

Looking closely at the mounting of the stator; it didn't look square or fully seated to the casting.
Removed the stator again and tried to remount squarely without success. I can line up the stator slot with the alignment pin, but it throws out at the top. I can line up the top, but the bottom fouls!

I removed the stator and also the rotor to check the wood ruff key locator. Remounted the rotor and tightened up center bolt.

Tried again to mount the stator; but it still fouls the surrounding cast basket.

I just cannot get the damn thing to fit without one or two of the basket protrusions fouling.
Any ideas?

Cheers Ads.

 

[jpdevol]

Yes sir, they can be buggers sometimes. I sometimes have to remove the sub-harness grommet from the cases (it binds the thing) and then try to rotate and seat the stator inside the "fingers" by hand - all the way around - then install the long 6mm screws.

 

[Adamc]

Yes sir, they can be buggers sometimes. I sometimes have to remove the sub-harness grommet from the cases (it binds the thing) and then try to rotate and seat the stator inside the "fingers" by hand - all the way around - then install the long 6mm screws.

Thanks JP; its not just me then. Looking at the pictures do you think my rotor is fully seated?
I did release the P-Clip from the stator body to give more play in the wiring; and removed the casing grommet.
I will go back now and retry; without the frustrating bad language!
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[jpdevol]

LOL, I feel your pain......no the stator is not now fully seated. The machined groove/ledge around the inner circumference of the housing should seat flush on the ends of the "fingers" of the center case.

 

[jpdevol]

Almost seated

Not close

 

[JesseeS]

Ads, we’re all pals here. You can drop the act. We know you’re letting it not fit and messing with the wiring so you can justify purchasing the Vape system. We support you. Hah! Hope you get this sorted soon!

 

[GLJ]

Have you checked to see how much run out you have at to rotor?

 

[Adamc]

Almost seated
View attachment 241473
Not close
View attachment 241474

With the encouragement of JP I have I now re-seated the stator flush with the casting protrusions. I did ease it on with the help of a soft faced mini hammer! I know, I know...... But needs must. Checked for key on energizing at the stator and hey presto good magnetism.

So far so good. next is get some fresh E5 fuel and check for charging.

@JesseeS I would like a VAPE system (Others are available!); but I'm happy to get this one going for now.

Onward to getting a full charge.

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[Adamc]

Have you checked to see how much run out you have at to rotor?

Thanks for the tip @GLJ
I will take that route if my previous work fails.
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