New to me XS 650...

[gggGary]

I have run many XS650 many years for many miles with mechanical regulators, if clean inside and set correctly, ZERO issues. Original XS650 solid state regulators on the other hand are showing their age and I've found a fair number that have failed. Cheap Chincom solid state rec/regs are also notoriously unreliable. No reason to replace the working parts on your 50 year old bike. An advantage of these mechanical marvels is that they ARE adjustable, you can tweak em a bit if your typical bike use is short tripping. While I haven't used them together, they also could be set to better match the voltage requirements of lithium based battery chemistry.
The (expensive) MOSFET based rec/regs are generally found to be reliable performers, just don't fall for a counterfeit "deal".

 

[5twins]

Yes, these old mechanical regulators continue to soldier on and are very reliable. I just didn't like the erratic output. I figured it's constant ramping up and down had to be putting more of a strain on the other big ticket items in the system, notably the stator and rotor. A good American made automotive regulator is also very reliable. The VR115 is from Standard Motor. A VR1010 is the NAPA/Echlin equivalent and also a very nice unit .....

 

[Kevin Werner]

Yes, I don't think it's been mentioned, but most of us replace that old unit with a solid state automotive one. For your bike, that would be a VR115 or one of it's equivalents. They can be had new from an auto parts store for around $30 but if you shop eBay, you can often find them for less, sometimes as little as $10 or $12. Although that old original is a real tank, it's output is very inconsistent. I discovered this once I installed a voltmeter. At 3500 to 4000 RPMs, when the output should be maxed out, it would sometimes drop very low. I think the vibration affects it's function and output. The automotive unit produces a nice, steady 14.2 to 14.5 volt output, no fluctuations.

Jim made mention on page 3 and linked to this. Nice write up. I am going over old entries to refresh myself. I did get a VR1010 yesterday.

This section deals with the earlier B type regulator. It's written by 5twins. So, take it away 5twins....



View attachment 198851
OK, here I'll talk about the 'B' type regulator needed for the '70-'79 charging systems. There was a change in the 650 charging system in 1980 and it had to do with how the brushes were wired. On the '70-'79 systems, the inner brush is grounded full time to the stator housing through it's mounting screws and the outer brush is fed regulated power from the regulator. The 1980-on systems are sort of the opposite. Their inner brush is fed constant power from the harness (switched on and off with the key) and the outer brush is fed a regulated ground from the regulator. So, that means 2 different types of regulators are needed. As Jim discussed above, the '80 and newer systems require a ground switching type 'A' regulator. The '70-'79 systems require a regulator that switches or regulates power to the outer brush and that is called a type 'B' regulator. The most common one we use is the VR115 from Standard Motor Products. Many other manufacturers make this under a different part number and I'll list some later.

Now, this is a regulator only, not a combined reg/rec like the '80 and newer models used. The '70-'79 models used a separate rectifier. The same Windy Nation rectifier Jim used above can be used as a replacement. You can mount the VR115 in the same spot as the original regulator on the '74 and newer models. I'm not sure about the '73 and older models but it can probably be done as well .....


View attachment 198839


Only one mount will align with an original so a small triangle-shaped adapter or extension plate will need to be made up to reach the other .....


View attachment 198840


There was a small issue with the lower right mounting bolt in the pics above. It stuck out too far and hit the side cover so I simply flipped it around. The bolt head was still a bit close so I put a button head Allen in .....


View attachment 198842


Wiring it up is pretty simple. The black and green wires from the VR115 will match up to the same colored wires in the 650 harness. The red or orange and yellow wires on the VR115 get combined and connected to the brown wire in the 650 harness. The VR115 harness is very short, way too short to reach up on top of the battery box where the regulator harness plug is. Instead of cutting the VR115 plug off and soldering extension wires on, I simply make up a little jumper harness .....


View attachment 198843


The regulator end gets 4 individual spades that are plugged into the VR115 plug .....


View attachment 198844


To keep them in place, I install a couple cable ties .....


View attachment 198845


On the harness end, a matching plug to the harness is installed and I make the transition from 4 wires to 3 by combining the red (or orange) and yellow wires on one crimp .....


View attachment 198846


The extension harness is routed behind the battery box up to the regulator harness plug .....


View attachment 198847


And that pretty much covers it. Here's a list of some VR115 substitutes from other manufacturers, same regulator just under a different part number .....

GRX-528 Motorcraft (Ford)
VR 1010 NAPA Echlin
VR727 Wells
1V1033 Airtex
C622 AC Delco
VR-1760 Ace
VR291 GP Sorensen
R292 BWD
KVR179 Borg Warner

The silver one pictured above is the NAPA VR 1010 .....


View attachment 198848

 

[bosco659]

Yes, 10mm banjo ends, and get at least one with the slight angle in it. You want that down at the caliper for bleed nipple clearance. At the top, a straight fitting works fine .....

I've always re-used the original sealing washers and never had a problem. I do anneal them before re-use though.

When you anneal the washers do you quench them in oil or water, or I’ve also read you can air cool them. I’ve also been told it’s not a bad idea to anneal new washers before use. I went through a heck of a day today getting my brake fittings to stop leaking at the banjo bolts.

 

[Jim]

To anneal copper (or brass) you heat to a dull red and quench in water. Yeah... it's different from ferrous metals....

 

[Kevin Werner]

First ride today, 39 degrees F. The new bars are near perfect for me. Honda CB550SS 75/76. Two finger braking with the 12.7mm M/C piston. New clutch cable is night and day difference. I rejetted to 130s from 132.5s and lifted the needle one notch to the middle position. Burbling is almost gone completely, some on deceleration which I would expect. The mid range seems even better but that could be first ride adrenaline.

 

[Adamc]

First ride today, 39 degrees F. The new bars are near perfect for me. Honda CB550SS 75/76. Two finger braking with the 12.7mm M/C piston. New clutch cable is night and day difference. I rejetted to 130s from 132.5s and lifted the needle one notch to the middle position. Burbling is almost gone completely, some on deceleration which I would expect. The mid range seems even better but that could be first ride adrenaline.

Great news TW. Show us some piccies next ride

 

[5twins]

Rumbling and slight popping on decel is pretty normal, you'll never get rid of it all. The louder, aftermarket pipes make it more noticeable. I think even a stock bike does it a little but with the quiet stock mufflers, you just don't notice it as much. Setting the mix screws at the rich end of their best running range seems to help with the decel popping.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Pics would be cornfield here, hay field there Truthfully, spots I have stopped for a pic I was nervous about traffic coming around a blind corner. Ride was only 10-15 miles. 50s (F) Sunday or Monday and I can get some GPS speed calibration to my NOS speedo. I need more miles with less adrenaline to catalog further impressions.

 

[fredintoon]

To anneal copper (or brass) you heat to a dull red and quench in water. Yeah... it's different from ferrous metals....

Hi Jim,
copper alloys stay annealed after quenching or after being air-cooled. Some aluminum alloys stay annealed after quenching, others re-harden over time.
And how steel responds to heat treatment depends on it's Carbon %age, eh? Machinery's Handbook has many pages on that subject.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Rumbling and slight popping on decel is pretty normal, you'll never get rid of it all. The louder, aftermarket pipes make it more noticeable. I think even a stock bike does it a little but with the quiet stock mufflers, you just don't notice it as much. Setting the mix screws at the rich end of their best running range seems to help with the decel popping.

Thanks 5Twins. When the 132.5s were in it was way worse. A shot in the dark when I went 130s I lifted the needle 1 notch. I know, I know, 1 thing at a time.

 

[5twins]

Yes, you leaned the mains one size but then made the midrange one step richer by raising the needles. Eventually, you'll want to test that new needle setting to see if it's too rich. In 2nd or 3rd gear, from about 3 to 3.5K RPMs, roll the throttle wide open and accelerate through the midrange up onto the mains (about 5 to 5.5K RPMs). Watch for break-up. If you get some, the needle is set too rich. Normally, this eventually happens as you install larger mains and the "fix" is to lean the needle setting a step. It may not happen with just one size up but usually does with a couple or more sizes up.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Yes, you leaned the mains one size but then made the midrange one step richer by raising the needles. Eventually, you'll want to test that new needle setting to see if it's too rich. In 2nd or 3rd gear, from about 3 to 3.5K RPMs, roll the throttle wide open and accelerate through the midrange up onto the mains (about 5 to 5.5K RPMs). Watch for break-up. If you get some, the needle is set too rich. Normally, this eventually happens as you install larger mains and the "fix" is to lean the needle setting a step. It may not happen with just one size up but usually does with a couple or more sizes up.

Thanks again (and again, and again) 5Twins. I think I detected "break-up" with 132.5s and needle 1 notch leaner. I lifted the needle 1 notch on the assumption that leaning the whole circuit, the needle might need a little more. My understanding is that the main feeds the needle and the main jets. I see myself being a carb jockey, parts in, parts out, needle up, needle down in the near future. A task I was worried about for fear of chipping paint (tank/seat pan ) off, on, off, on is becoming rote so now it is only time available and not trepidation. Saddle time first. I have not touched air mix screws to this point. I do not have the gauges to optimize those.
As an aside someone (You?) posted a seat of the pants carb tuning guide that I came across in my site exploration. I forgot where I saw it.

 

[5twins]

The mix screws on these CV carbs are true fuel mixture screws, not air screws. Opening them up more allows more of the fuel/air mix coming from the pilot jet into the main bore, so this makes the idle circuit a bit richer.

The only thing I use any sort of gauges for is syncing the carbs. I set the mix screws by ear. On your '76-'77 carb set, it's old enough that it wasn't E.P.A. strangled yet and that makes hearing the difference mix screw settings have pretty easy. Go much past the ideal setting range, either in or out, and the idle speed will fall off and the idle will start to stumble.

So, start with the screws set at the factory spec (1.5 turns out for your carb set). Have the bike warmed up and idling correctly (1100 to 1200 RPMs). It's actually even easier to judge your adjustments if the idle speed is even slower, so you could turn it down to around 1000 if you wanted to. Do one cylinder and carb at a time. Pick a direction, either in or out, and start turning the screw 1/4 turn at a time. Within 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn, the motor will start stumbling. Note that setting, go back to the factory 1.5 setting, and work the screw in the other direction until the same thing happens. You will find a small span of adjustment, maybe 3/8 to 1/2 of a turn, where the motor runs best, fastest and smoothest. You'll want the screw set somewhere in that range. I set mine at the rich end of it, as rich as I can get it before the motor starts stumbling. This seems to give the least amount of popping on decel.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Put 50 or so miles on and have mixed thoughts early on, and at lower speeds it seemed to miss at steady throttle, 2500ish revs. As I got out to back country roads and cornfields it ran very nicely and I spent alot of time in the 3500 to 4200 Rev range. My route took me to the lakeshore, Lake Michigan, past the Whistling Straights golf course for you golfers, and back home. Along the lakeshore,, 45 to 55mph, the temp dropped from the breeze off the lake to low 40s F. Is it possible I over oiled the Uni pods and it took a lengthy run to suck them clear. A pic next to a country cornfield and at a riverside park.

 

[Jim]

and at lower speeds it seemed to miss at steady throttle, 2500ish revs.

Try dropping the needle back down where it was...

 

[Kevin Werner]

Dropping the needle occurred to me. Most of my riding is in that region where the needle jet is doing the fuel ďelivery. I am lazy and thought going 127.5s was an option too. I will take another long ride when it is warmer and can listen, feel, think without shivering my stones.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Yes. if the oil fuel mix was to heavy on the oil and the foam wasn't wrung out enough

Count me guilty.

 

[Kevin Werner]

Try dropping the needle back down where it was...

Jim, your direction is sensible. I will ride 20 or 30 miles tomorrow in predicted 50-55 degrees F and verify my seat of the pants impression. Doing needles on this bike is disassembly of the seat pan and wiring, spinning wrenches near very nice custom paint. But, I am getting better at it and the gains have been remarkable thus far. My "127.5" comment was based on 5Twins observations in a couple of threads where he pointed out that generally (he was not issuing a cold hard fact, only his observation) pods and pipes respond well to 1 or 2 steps up in mains. This is BBK and pipes and pods. BBK only means more through flow which CVS can handle it seems. But, again, I seem to be operating in the "needle " region so a needle adjustment is probably appropriate. Thanks

 

[Kevin Werner]

40 is covered with adhesive shelf paper(stick on, peel off) , a new number is coming. 11, turn it up to 11? The answer is 42? 81, 9 squared?