XSB-1 Timing Retard

T

ThomasADixon

XS650 Enthusiast
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Dear Forum,

I am about to retard the timing on my bike (to reduce start-up kickback). I have never done timing before and think I can do it anyway. I have ordered JIS bits to remove the cover plates. I am awaiting them before I can even get started. The phillips-like screws on this bike are very tight and to this point are perfect and have never been "bunged" or scarred up. So I am not taking any chances with the appearance of this bike. And i hate to be the one who effed it up.

My current advice (as I understand it) from Jim, Boog and gggGary have been to retard the timing a few degrees to reduce any kickback. I think that that is excellent advice and am proceeding in that way.

I have also read that using the choke for starting can cause a mixture that may lead to "kickback". In Florida I doubt if I even need to use the choke - I have just been following the advice of the previous owner (a two-hundred an forty pounder). It causes me to wonder if I should also enhance the E0 gasoline I was cautioned to use exclusively? Would a 93 octane E10 be better noting that the addition of ethanol into the system is a bargain with the devil to get higher Octane. In fact, is Octane even part of the issue? If so are there other ways to enhance E0 without introducing Ethanol?

Pardon me if I use phrases incorrectly or do not understand. I am just ignorant and trying. I don't care if I appear stupid - I'm too old for that. Please consider me stupid in any correspondence.

Its good because I am building up my leg muscles and resting my knee soft tissue in the mean-time in anticipation of success. This will be my solution and if it does not work and make the kick-starting easier I'll have to get rid of this beauty and go to an electric start bike. But I know Ill never find as nice a bike as this. Besides; chicks think it cool when you have to kick-start a bike.

Please wish me luck and I appreciate all of the helpful advice. I will be posting as I go when I get started.

I have to go to Jax to pick-up a Ram (sheep) I bought and will return to get started with this process. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

best regards Tom
 
I think retarding the ignition a couple of degrees is a good idea. I do that now on my XS2. I've had it since 1976. I do not ever remember having a kickback problem with it. Granted when I bought it I was much younger. Not lighter though. In my youth I was able to kick it flat footed, now not going to try. My technique now is have it on the center-stand, using right leg stroke it to compression bring the kicker back to the top, then kick. Do not straighten your leg before starting down. Your leg should not really straighten 100% during the kick. If it kicks back and your leg is straight something may give. I've had many bikes kickback at me over the years because my leg was not straight and my knee was not locked never had a injury from it. Another reason not to straighten the leg is what we use to call "sportster knee".
As far as fuel I have to run grain gas. I normally use 93 octane just because. Have used regular with no problems.
 
Last edited:
I’ve retarded the timing on both of my bikes ( 1977 and a 1972 ) , they both have electronic ignitions. Prior to retarding the ignitions, they could be a little reluctant to kick start, the ‘77 was especially so. However since retarding the ignitions they are now both, one kick bikes! And regarding using the choke, I live in Arizona and it’s hot here, and I still use the choke to start it, I only leave the choke on for about 15 seconds after starting it, but it does help it to fire off initially.
I posted this the other day but perhaps you’ll find this useful. My starting technique is,
1. Up on the center stand, Bike in neutral, clutch pulled, kick it a few times to free up the clutch plates
2. Choke on, key off, kick it through a couple of times, just to pull a little gas into the intake tract.
3. Key on ,push the Kickstarter lever until the motor comes up on compression, then bring the lever back up, and one good kick all the way through, will usually start my bikes.
 
+1 On GLJ with the right technique it is simpler

You probably have points on it so I dont remember how sensitive it is for adjusting while running
But I have done it so many times With Boyer Bransden that I almost never use the strobe light.

Bike running at idle
If it is advanced it knocks a bit more --and retarding it the sound gets milder and the rev increases slightly but
noticeably
Blipp the throttle so it responds .. OK ..
If it is difficult to start readjust and test the throttle response blipping again.
Listening to the sound and rev change
If not getting it right immediately no big problem just move it again a little
After test ride or after some time.
Use a pen to mark up makes it simpler
 
Jan_P said:
+1 On GLJ with the right technique it is simpler

You probably have points on it so I dont remember how sensitive it is for adjusting while running
But I have done it so many times With Boyer Bransden that I almost never use the strobe light.

Bike running at idle
If it is advanced it knocks a bit more --and retarding it the sound gets milder and the rev increases slightly but
noticeably
Blipp the throttle so it responds .. OK ..
If it is difficult to start readjust and test the throttle response blipping again.
Listening to the sound and rev change
If not getting it right immediately no big problem just move it again a little
After test ride or after some time.
Use a pen to mark up makes it simpler
Click to expand...
Although that's a good way to do it Jan, our friend here is a rookie... it's doubtful he has the "ear" for doing that... at least not yet.
Prolly best to stick with a timing light.
 
On removing the cover plate, use the screwdriver with a hammer. Tap the screwdriver so it beds nicely into the screw. ...............Give the screwdriver a few firm taps, (NOTE: it is important to keep the screwdriver square, or 90 Degrees, to the screw), this will break the screw............Not break it as such, (break as a term not brake, broke), but will break the screw thread if it is stuck, it will not do any damage to the screw or thread.

Then try to loosen the screw, if it is hard then hold the screwdriver and exert pressure as if your trying to loosen the screw.................again firm taps on the head of the screwdriver while maintaining the pressure to turn the screwdriver..............the vibration and turning pressure will loosen the screw.......


Here is some information relating to why your bike is hard to start. 70XS1's and 71XS1B's up to Production no 023129 had a compression Ratio of 8.7:1.

Yamaha Decided to lower the compression from production no 023130 on the XS1B's for passably 2 reasons, Vibration and being hard to start due to how advanced they were. .......................Yamaha lowered the compression to 8.1:1 by taking 1.2mm off the top of the pistons, making the chamber larger.

Yamaha seemed to play around with the compression ratio's going up to 8.4:1 and later back to 8.7:1, (going off their brochures), but they also changed the cam profile

Your bike being lower no than 023129 and being a low mileage bike will more than likely have the high compression pistons. Retarding will help but you still have high compression pistons
XS1B piston change resize.jpg
 
ThomasADixon said:
Dear Forum,

I am about to retard the timing on my bike (to reduce start-up kickback). I have never done timing before and think I can do it anyway. I have ordered JIS bits to remove the cover plates. I am awaiting them before I can even get started. The phillips-like screws on this bike are very tight and to this point are perfect and have never been "bunged" or scarred up. So I am not taking any chances with the appearance of this bike. And i hate to be the one who effed it up.

My current advice (as I understand it) from Jim, Boog and gggGary have been to retard the timing a few degrees to reduce any kickback. I think that that is excellent advice and am proceeding in that way.

I have also read that using the choke for starting can cause a mixture that may lead to "kickback". In Florida I doubt if I even need to use the choke - I have just been following the advice of the previous owner (a two-hundred an forty pounder). It causes me to wonder if I should also enhance the E0 gasoline I was cautioned to use exclusively? Would a 93 octane E10 be better noting that the addition of ethanol into the system is a bargain with the devil to get higher Octane. In fact, is Octane even part of the issue? If so are there other ways to enhance E0 without introducing Ethanol?

Pardon me if I use phrases incorrectly or do not understand. I am just ignorant and trying. I don't care if I appear stupid - I'm too old for that. Please consider me stupid in any correspondence.

Its good because I am building up my leg muscles and resting my knee soft tissue in the mean-time in anticipation of success. This will be my solution and if it does not work and make the kick-starting easier I'll have to get rid of this beauty and go to an electric start bike. But I know Ill never find as nice a bike as this. Besides; chicks think it cool when you have to kick-start a bike.

Please wish me luck and I appreciate all of the helpful advice. I will be posting as I go when I get started.

I have to go to Jax to pick-up a Ram (sheep) I bought and will return to get started with this process. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

best regards Tom
Click to expand...

Hi Tom:

There are no stupid questions - just folks who won't ask for advice prior to messing something up (and who, among us - has not done that - asks he, looking in the mirror?). The timing cover screws shouldn't be too tight but they are big so you will need a #3 JIS driver for those. For the smaller points and timing plates inside the cover, you will likely use the #2 JIS or even the #1 JIS. Those small screws inside are very very often buggered already - unfortunately.

While you are doing this task, I suggest that you take off the identical cover on the right hand end of the camshaft where you will find the advance mechanism. With the engine off - gently move the little fly-weights and watch how the timing shaft (which runs INSIDE the camshaft) rotates a tiny bit as the flyweights move in and out. That motion is the ignition advance that everyone talks about.

The role of that ignition advance is to rotate the cam that operates the ignition points to make the spark plugs fire a little earlier (i.e. it advances the spark timing) in the engine cycle - so that the spark occurs when the piston is a little lower in the cylinder - at higher engine speeds. The reason this advance is needed is that the flame front formed when the spark plug ignites the air-fuel mixture in the cylinder moves at a constant speed - regardless of engine RPM. So - to make sure that the combustion process happens at the optimal point in the piston stroke, it has to start a little earlier at higher RPM. If the advance mechanism didn't work properly - the engine would not rev-up very well but rather, it would stumble and "miss" when you open the throttle. It certainly sounds as though your advance mechanism is working just fine though.

NOTE: never try to bend or adjust the flyweights. If the springs become weak, they can be replaced quite easily and inexpensively.

Others may disagree, but I think it would be a good idea to put just a wee drop of oil on the little flyweight pivot shafts (not to much) just to make sure that the mechanism operates freely.

Have fun with it - we are all following with interest!

Pete
 
It was always a joke in "B" films and TV cop shows when they would show a car crash into a truck labeled "High Octane Gasoline" and the resultant explosion.

High octane gasoline contains additives to control preignition so that the air/gas mixture does not explode before you want it to. Lower octane is actually minimally more volatile and thus more potentially explosive.

In these engines, mild compression, the octane rating is relatively unimportant, but staying away from ethanol perhaps more important as it's known to have detrimental effects on plastic and rubber parts used in carburetors and fuel handling components.

Follow the advice of the PO and the knowledgeable fellows here and stick with the lower rated E0
 
Where I live in the suburbs of Phoenix, we simply have no choice in gasoline. They sell what they call CBG ( cleaner burning gas ) it not only has alcohol , but it has a whole witches brew of highly volatile solvents. It’s what melted my tank liner , but that’s a whole nuther sad story. :rolleyes:
 
Ok

I am back for a couple hours. The first video on static timing is good. It says I need to check the tension on the cam chain and make sure its not floppin' around or it will make timing difficult. I will watch the other video and then get to the static timing. Got all the covers off; two on each jug and one on the LHS case.


Have noticed very minor discoloration where the points lay in contact w/ each other (and can drag my wife's finger-nail file in there and get it back before she notices it missing). The video shows him polishing the cam post thats centered between the points. He says his are pitted - I doubt mine are but Ill polish them up. The little brushes may be squished down all the time too and I will check that.

I will check the gap as well while I'm in there but I don't think I am having those sort of problems, but anything I make better should add up. I think I need to get a static check light to show when the points are open or make one.
 
You should service (clean and lube) your advance unit and especially the advance rod that runs through the cam. The advance rod rotates a small amount in the cam, maybe 1/8 of a turn, and that's what moves the timing from retarded to advanced. If your rod is all dried out and sticking, the timing may be stuck advanced or partially advanced and that could be causing the kick-back.
 
I think I did it fellas! I cleaned up the points and cam area - they weren't too bad. Checked the cam chain tension. It was good. I retarded it about 5 degrees by my estimation - wasn't gettin' the idea at first but i stuck with it. One plate sits on the other plate. and you have to turn that cam down at the lower case all the way thru once to do the other points. Which make sense.

Had to quit and go get a battery because what was in there was shot and rigged-up for the sale. I cracked the plastic spark plug housing.
In my defense it was old and brittle. Mikes xs has em.

Now I can almost kick it over from a seated position!

Just went for a long ride, sorry to just be getting back!

Thank you guys for all your help - not a bit of knee aggravation from today's activity. I'm afraid you could be stuck with me hangin around for a long time.

This is one fun machine. Its just right - not too big not too small. I'm gonna name it Goldilocks.:bike:
 
Thanks 5twins; Ill revisit the advance unit - MaxPete told me that too. I think I closed it up without doing a good job of that.

I can pop it open and put a drop of oil on it.
 
ThomasADixon said:
Thanks 5twins; Ill revisit the advance unit - MaxPete told me that too. I think I closed it up without doing a good job of that.

I can pop it open and put a drop of oil on it.
Click to expand...
What Pete and 5T are talking about are two different things.
 

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